Pam Sorooshian is a long-time unschooling mom of three, now adult, children, who continues to stay actively involved in the unschooling community. She’s also a college professor of economics and statistics.
In today’s episode, I ask her ten questions about her unschooling experience.
Quote of the Week
“Man’s mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
Ten Questions for Pam
1. Jumping back a few years, how did you first hear about unschooling and what spurred you to begin exploring unschooling with your family?
2. Let’s talk a bit about what learning looks like with unschooling. When one of your children was actively pursuing an interest, what are some of the things you did to support their exploration? And how did you weave together pursuing the interests of all three children?
3. One of the wonderful things about unschooling is the time we spend together. We get to know each other very well, strengthening our family’s connections and relationships, and part of that process, especially with siblings, is figuring out ways to move through moments when they are frustrated and angry with each other. When your children were younger, how did you help them move through conflicts?
4. I understand that your husband was a bit wary of unschooling for a few years, as was mine. How did you approach that?
5. One of the topics that regularly trips up newcomers to unschooling is TV watching. I’ve always loved your clear explanation of how restricting TV actually causes children to become more strongly attracted to it, the opposite of what the parent is trying to accomplish. Can you take us through that?
6. As an economics and statistics professor, you are pretty comfortable with math, but it’s an area that can be challenging for some people to figure out as they explore unschooling, especially since school has mostly boiled math down to worksheets. I have two questions for you about math. The first is, can you talk about how you see learning math through unschooling?
7. The second question is, can you suggest, especially for parents who are feeling a bit math phobic, some activities can they do with their children?
8. You’ve been actively involved with Homeschool Association of California’s annual conference for many years. What are some the benefits of going to a conference that you’ve seen for newer unschooling families?
9. All three of your daughters chose to go to college, and you see lots of schooled kids in your college classes. Have you seen any advantages in college from growing up unschooling?
10. Looking back now, what, for you, has been the most valuable outcome from choosing unschooling?
Links to things mentioned in the show
Pam’s blog: learninghappens.wordpress.com
Pam’s classic piece: “Economics of Restricting TV Watching of Children“
Read more about Pam’s daughters’ college experience: sandradodd.com/college
You can find Pam participating in discussions in these Facebook groups: Radical Unschooling Info and Unschooling Mom2Mom.
And you can find more info about the HSC Conference here: www.hscconference.com
Episode transcript
Great, great stuff! Thank you!!
Glad you enjoyed it, Chrissy!
loved it…”…its not just your crazy wife!”. thanks for producing!
LOL! Right? Thanks, Gaynor!
Thank you so much for this podcast Pam (both Pam’s actually!)!!
I’ve been reading about unschooling for a few years but never really dared to fully move away from conventional parenting. Last week after listening to the first two episodes of your podcast we finally took the plunge! Tuesday morning my two older kids (6 and 4) didn’t want to go to school and I said “Ok”. They didn’t go all week and we’ve been experimenting with unlimited TV/internet, food choices and late bedtimes. It wasn’t always easy but it’s getting better every day, and it feels so right now!!! There has been a huge shift in our relationship and the stuff they’ve been creating and coming up with in one short week is amazing.
Listening to you and Pam talking about unschooling helped me build up the confidence. Thank you! Can’t wait to see how this journey goes on – and to listen to all the other episodes!!!
Hi Halina,
What a cool story!! I love that you’re seeing such great shifts in both activities and relationships even in your first week. Kids are pretty amazing, aren’t they?
And I’m glad the podcast could help along the way. 🙂
Wishing you all the best on your unschooling journey!
I’ve just been getting into podcasts and have enjoyed yours so far, Pam L.! I also enjoyed listening to Pam S. A lot of what she said resonated with me and our unschooling lives.
Along the TV idea, I totally got what Pam S. was saying, and yet, it seemed she was speaking of the two extreme opposites…very restricting parents (like the example she gave), and those who actively opposed it (like she said she worked through), and the side that says unlimited and her discussion of margin of utility. From my experience, there is a middle ground (which often works best with a pendulum swing to any idea).
My children grew up with a positive view on television, but lots of discussion about mindfully using it. Each child (of my seven) came to their own relationship with screens as it pertained to them individually. There was never an overall declaration one way or another. This is the same for video games, eating, and sleeping.
Plus, I wonder if the margin of utility applies especially to adults. How many of us parents have watched the same Disney video 100 times because of a certain child’s love of it (and I did it x7…haha!). Or the same food over and over and over and over again. Yes, for me, I want variety, but for my children, especially mine with autism, they wanted sameness. I think there is learning that happens in their sameness need (for all children). Thus, the discussions we had over their developmental growth was about helping them become mindful and aware as it was needed or developmentally appropriate. My thoughts and experiences on that particular topic anyway.
Keep up the good work! I’ve thought about figuring out the podcast thing, and may still, but right now, I’ll admire others!
The principle of diminishing marginal utility applies to everybody – it is part of human nature. That doesn’t mean some people might not eat the same food over and over. If they do that, it means that they LOVE it so much and are getting so much out of it that the marginal utility of that food, although declining as they eat more and more (within a given time period), is still higher than the marginal utility of any other food. That holds for tv watching and everything else.
I’m not 100 percent clear on what “middle ground” means in this context. My point about diminishing marginal utility is that if you restrict something, you are keeping the child at a point where the marginal utility is high and the child’s desire for that thing will be correspondingly high.
If you relax controls at all, that will reduce the marginal utility. But the point is that you can’t actually tell how much the child will choose that activity if they aren’t being allowed to choose (and “work through” it as described above). You can’t tell because their demand will be extremely high because their marginal utility is very high when the thing is restricted and it will be lower if they are less/not restricted. Parents often say, “If I let him, that’s all he’ll do.” I get that it feels that way – but it is unlikely that, when restrictions are lifted, that a child will continue to have the same extremely high marginal utility (after some working through the new situation).
I guess my husband has a high diminishing marginal utility as it pertains to peanut butter and jelly or honey sandwiches. He’s 51 and I think he has one about every day (and he was poor and grew up on the stuff). Hahaha!
Hi Cindy,
I wonder if the middle ground you’re talking about between “restrictive” and “unlimited” is what you’re describing as lots of mindful discussion.
For me, “unlimited” doesn’t mean leaving them on their own. Helping our children explore the value, or marginal utility, that more of something has for them is part of our day-to-day parenting. Sometimes it means offering up other options so they have an active choice to make, other times it means chatting with them about how much they’re enjoying a certain repetitious activity etc. All in support of helping them actively explore the choices they are making, and in turn, the marginal utility of making that same choice again.
Restrictions mean that they don’t have the opportunity to make the same choice again, so it’s hard for them to discover when they’ve “had their fill,” i.e. when the marginal utility drops below that of other choices.
Yes, Pam! That’s what I’m talking about . My feeling is this: If a parent takes too much control, how can a child make a mindful choice? But, I also think if a child has unlimited access without information and balance, a child also can’t make a mindful choice. So, the middle ground to me is that I DO live with principles, and I’ll share my principles, because, in my opinion, you can’t live a principled life without the example of someone living a principled life. They will develop their own principles, but how they do that is to have an example, so they will hear how I live mine, and why I live mine, and I let them know how I feel.
So, how do they come to their own principled thinking? I understand they are little people figuring it out. I give lots of space for figuring out what they think, how they feel, and what works for them or not works for them. My job is to ask them lots of questions, cue them into their own feelings and reasons why they do what they do, understand and be aware of developmental appropriateness and healthy decision-making, as they slowly learn about and understand how to make mindful choices.
For instance, my youngest has always loved guns and is a huge outdoorsman. He’s adopted, and every one in my birth family are big animal lovers and anti-violence (which can include guns). So, here comes this kiddo who feels differently. He became very educated about it over time, starting as young as 5-6 years old. How could I deny him access when appropriate? I couldn’t. Luckily, the Lord loves everyone, and helped him along with his interest through my daughter marrying a gun-loving man. So, he gets his outlet with someone who enjoys it, and I don’t have to be necessarily directly involved. On the other hand, at our encouragement, he’s part of a shooting club, and I’ve ended up providing a gun range on my property… haha!
Boy, this response took a lot of my thinking. I need to write a post about it! I would love your thoughts and reactions to my thinking. I’m always learning, and I’m finding it hard to produce the right words to describe our process here. Thanks for the venue prompted from your podcast!
Hi Cindy,
Sorry, it’s taken me a bit to reply, busy times. 🙂
I agree with your take, and I think it actually goes beyond just the question of unlimited access. I think it’s more challenging for a child to develop self-awareness and gain experience with making choices at both ends of the spectrum: when their parents are controlling and when they are uninvolved (i.e. not helping their children process things; processing being things like the conversations you mentioned).
That’s not to say that we’re looking for some sort of “balance” in the middle. I like to think of it more as a dance—the dance of parenting. Haha. Considering lots of factors (like the child’s temperament and mindset, and the parent’s, their relationship, the current circumstances etc), together we start to get a feel for times when we’re dancing in sync, and for times when one or the other of us may take the lead for a bit. As you get to understand each more deeply, it flows more easily. 🙂
And I love how you found ways to support your youngest’s interest in guns and the outdoors!
This was great! I listened while doing some deep cleaning, So glad I found this. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it! 🙂
NOTE: This question was submitted to the Q&A but it was specifically related to this episode with Pam, so I thought I’d bring it here.
I was intrigued when I listened to Pam Sorooshian’s interview—she seems to have been working and unschooling at the same time? I’m really curious about this, because I enjoy my work *and* I enjoy my kids. I work part-time and mostly from home, but have found that I really need quiet, non-kid time to get most of my work done (and I don’t mind doing some work after they’re in bed, but not *all* of it).
At the same time, I really love the idea of unschooling. How do working unschooling parents do it? Thanks so much!
Thank you, Pam, for these wonderful podcasts! We have been an unschooling family for at least 10 years. We eliminated restrictions on video games and food for my older boys, but I never felt great about it. I struggled even more with it when I had my youngest son, since the older 2 were 5 and 8 when we started unschooling in earnest. I thought- sure a 5/8 year old can make his own choices, but a toddler needs me to control his diet and food choices. My youngest turned 5 last fall and let me know he was very angry when I told him he couldn’t do things he wanted to do. So, we (I) worked on eliminating restrictions, but I was still struggling to feel good about it. I felt like I was so close, and kept searching for an article or book that would help me shift my thinking. Well, this interview did the trick! Thank you, Pam S for explaining the principle of diminishing marginal utility! Also for saying that setting limits is lazy parenting! Both of those made so much sense and complimented everything else I have been reading. Eliminate control and be connected and involved- those are the keys!
Thanks, Marcella, what a cool story! I love that her words connected with you, and what a beautiful summary: eliminate control and be connected and involved. 🙂
I am enjoying this podcast as well as your ebook. I am at the beginning of my jouney in unschooling.
I have a lovely, curious, and fun five year old daughter who is thriving in Montessori school. She is graduating from her primary classroom this year, and I’m planning to take a step away from formal schooling for at least a year. I feel excited and ready to support her in self directed learning, but I am worried about providing a rich and stimulating social environment for her. She’s an only child, and so many unschooling families have multiple children to provide opportunities to learn and hone interpersonal skills. I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this or hearing from future guests. Maybe I just need to let go and trust that this will work itself out, but this is the final thing that I’m struggling with Thank you for sharing your wisdom!
Hi, Melissa! Welcome, and thanks, I’m glad you’re enjoying them. 🙂
And, in a cool coincidence, we touched on unschooling only children in this week’s Q&A, episode 13! The second question, I think. In short, she’s definitely going to hone her skills at home—parents count too! Best to look to her to see if she is wanting more social interaction. That will depend on all sorts of things, including whether she leans to introversion or extroversion, and will likely ebb and flow over the years. It will all part of her growing self-awareness. And there are so many opportunities to engage with others (and learn!) through interests and activities, face-to-face and online, that, if she’s seeking them out, there’ll be stuff for you guys to try out. And if she’s not, that’s fine too. She’s learning what works for her.
And you’re welcome to submit your question, or any others, to the podcast if you’d like. 🙂
Thank you for your insightful reply. I suppose I am at that point where I just need to trust in my connection with my daughter and take the plunge. So nice to have someone at a different phase of this parenting journey to offer reassurance. Most parents look at me like I have three heads when I mention that we are taking a break from school for a while.
Ha! I am quite familiar with that look. 😉
Have fun!
I think I have a screen loving (YouTube, games & dvd). Hearing the statement that it is because there just isn’t enough fun in his life is hard to hear. It’s my fear…..I’ve been told that 5 year olds are easy to engage. My boy is so committed to watching and games. I restricted him totally until he was 4, and then a lot until he was 5 and now for the last 4-5 months I say yes. I’m waiting for the marginal untility to reduce. We do have other activities, but I am wanting much different activity and find myself feeling trapped in the house with my son watching something…
Hi Natasha,
A couple of things came to mind as I read your comment. One is something we talk about in some detail in the upcoming Q&A episode, EU021, namely moving beyond the idea of “screens.” YouTube, games, and dvd are all different activities, there’s no value in lumping them together. He’s enjoying and learning different things from each, or maybe he’s pursuing the same interest from different angles—those are the tools, not the interest.
Rather than sitting back and waiting for the marginal utility to reduce, spend time with him as he’s engaged and learn more about what his interests are. Here’s a bit I wrote recently about this idea: “Ask yourself questions to dig deeper. What kinds of games are they playing? What parts of the games do they enjoy? The story? The puzzles? The strategy? The music? The art? There are so many aspects to games! And what do they enjoy watching on YouTube? Does it that relate to the games they enjoy? How? As you discover what their root interests are, you’ll come to understand your child more deeply and won’t feel so conflicted about their choices. And you’ll be better able to both enthusiastically support them, and bring more things into their world that they will find really interesting.”
The other piece is you feeling trapped in the house. The great thing about this piece is that it’s totally under your control. First, as I just mentioned, instead of waiting around while your son is watching something, if you start engaging with him in those activities, I bet you’ll have a LOT of fun. That may sound crazy at first, but I was completely surprised by how much fun I had hanging out with my kids while they were watching and gaming!
And second, it’s a great opportunity for you guys to be side by side pursuing your individual interests. And if you can’t think of something fun to do in the house, what a great time to explore your own interests. Drawing, reading, colouring books, research, writing, puzzles, jewelry-making etc. The possibilities! I think looking at the situation as a big, wide field of possibilities can really help with the feeling of being trapped. I think you’ll soon find things flowing more easily from there. And how great for him to see you happily pursuing your interests too. 🙂
Have fun!
I love love your podcast, your podcast has been my guiding force in this unschooling journey, I wanted to know more about what she said about unschooling and working. I’ve been reading and researching in this topic and it’s is doable. But, just need insight in how others do it, I for one already do, (work full-time and unschool, M-F job, 8-5). Plan, to work part-time as well in the near future. My oldest is 7 and I have a 5 and 4 (boys). My daughter thrives in it because I know she is herself plus, she is with her sibling throughout the day.
Thanks tons!
Vanessa
Hi Vanessa, I’m so glad you’ve found the podcast helpful on your journey!
As for unschooling and working, I also asked Gwen, Pushpa, and Melissa about their experiences weaving them together, if you haven’t come across those episodes yet. 🙂
Unschooling as a Single Parent with Melissa
Ten Questions with Pushpa Ramachandran
Meeting Everyone’s Needs with Gwen Montoya
I just discovered your podcast and am only two episodes in but I’m excited (and grateful!) to have this as another resource. Our children are ages 4.5, 3 and 1. We just made the decision to unschool after having our oldest in Preschool this past year. My MOPS group hosted a schooling panel and along the panelists were a : public school mom, private school mom, traditional homeschool mom, cyber school mom and unschooling mom. This panel was super eye opening, and not just in regards to schooling but even in how I realized I want our family life to blossom. Which was addressed in this podcast by the closeness of family members and the importance of relationships.
My husband and I are excited about our decision and we know it will be best for our family!
I love that, Kristin! I’m so excited for you guys as you dive into the world of unschooling! All the best. 🙂
Wow! This is awesome! Thank you! Love the conversation about TV and getting husbands in sync!
So glad it resonated with you, Sara! 🙂