The Exploring Unschooling Podcast has now been around for over 10 years and 400 episodes! This month, we’re celebrating these huge milestones by looking back and reflecting on three big questions.
In Part 2 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what’s changed in the past 10 years. We talked about how unschooling is more like a branch of the tree rather than the roots, how the realization of the many, many ways that people are different has influenced our work, and how unschooling is really our journey and our work to do as parents.
We thank you so much for being a part of our Exploring Unschooling community and hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ERIKA: Hello everyone, I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello to you both!
So, today we’re continuing our series of episodes reflecting on the 10-year anniversary of the Exploring Unschooling podcast.
I know the podcast has been so influential to so many people, as it has been for me on my unschooling journey. And recently what has really deepened my understanding and learning and enriched my life in countless ways is the Living Joyfully Network. Our community of parents on Mighty Networks is a wonderful place to explore all of the questions and aha moments that come up on this journey.
I love our live conversations and our monthly topics to consider and I’ve made so many amazing friends. Every day I feel both inspired and calmed by the network. The topics we dive into inspire me to look closer and grow as a person. When everyone shares their unique experiences, I just feel grounded in knowing that we’re doing this together.
It really is an amazing space and we’d love for you to join us. You can find the link in the show notes or visit livingjoyfully.ca to learn more about joining and our new free trial month offer. So in this episode we’re going to be reflecting on the question, what has changed?
And as Pam said last time, 10 years is a good chunk of time and we’ve all definitely grown and changed during that time so I’m excited for this discussion. Would you like to get us started, Pam?
PAM: Absolutely, absolutely. When I started this podcast 10 years ago, my work was pretty much focused on unschooling, around exploring the choice to go to school or not go to school. Back when I realized that was even a choice and quickly found unschooling, it felt like a fundamental or a foundational choice in our life. I mean culturally school was and mostly still is so integrally woven into childhood that it seems that school is the most important aspect of childhood.
Everything else is extracurricular activities, right? It’s right there in the language. So what’s changed for me over the last decade is that I now see unschooling as a branch of the tree of childhood and not the roots.
For me, what lives in the roots and truly redefines childhood is cultivating connected and supportive relationships with our kids and giving them agency over their lives. Not as in leaving them to their own devices or insisting that they make all their decisions but living consensually as a family as you talked about in the last episode, Anna. How they feel and what they think matters.
We all have value regardless of age, right? And they may or may not want school to be part of their lives. It’s just a question. It’s not the fundamental question of childhood or it doesn’t have to be. And that answer may well change over time. School is a choice alongside the many other choices in their lives.
So that said, unschooling can be a great window into this way of being in relationship with our kids. And I think because it’s often the first place that real conflict can arise, like when a kid and the school classroom environment just don’t mix well. And that was definitely my path but it’s certainly not the only path to discovering the far-reaching and lifelong impact of just cultivating those connected relationships with our kids, right? There’s where the rich soil is.
ANNA: I know. It’s so interesting because you know I love a tree analogy. But it’s funny because in the early days, for me, I actually saw consensual living as the umbrella and unschooling was one choice under that umbrella. That’s the piece that you’re getting at.
It’s like unschooling is one choice when we’re living consensually. We have children making autonomous decisions and having agency about how they want to spend their time, how they want to engage in the world, how we want to do that together as a family. And so I really love that distinction and I do think it evolved really for all of us. I think especially for you, Pam, because you came from school to unschooling. It’s a little bit different for Erika and I. We have always unschooled with our kids. So I think that’s why maybe for me, I had that different view of it earlier on.
But I think it’s critical because, you’re right, I think it’s that first touch point that people come to, this flashpoint with school. It can be so intense and you kind of feel like you’re losing your child or their light is dimming and it feels scary. And so unschooling can be this beautiful door to walk through to realize that there are different ways. But yeah, I think once you’re there and realize, oh, it’s actually about the connection, it’s actually about the relationship we have.
And then together, we can make the choices that best serve us, whatever that looks like. And, and of course, I love unschooling, we all do here. But but yeah, I really love putting it in that place. It’s the relationships that are so important.
ERIKA: It reminds me of my perfection piece from the last one, because I remember when I first found unschooling, it’s like, well, if you are putting your kids in school, then you’re not unschooling. It was all connected. It’s like you have to make that decision in order to be doing it right, because I was looking for how to do it right.
And so it really has been a journey, a mindset journey to get to the place of realizing it’s not about school. It’s not about any one particular choice that may or may not look mainstream. It’s about what the child wants. What is the relationship with the child feeling like? And so I think unschooling kind of answers one problem, which is, the child is hating school. And so unschooling is a way to respect their autonomy in that way. And then a whole bunch of other possibilities open up.
But we’ve seen so many amazing families with these amazing connected relationships deciding to go to school. And that doesn’t change that core value and that root of what is amazing about their families, which is listening to each other, making sure that we’re not pushing past someone else’s consent. It’s very eye-opening to get to that place where it really is not about school. It’s not about that decision. It’s about something deeper than that.
PAM: Something deeper, so much more. And yes, we have episodes on the podcast where I talked to parents whose kids have gone to school and so much doesn’t need to change. You don’t all of a sudden have to become a different kind of parent or have a different kind of relationship, just because school happens to be in the picture.
But yes, it definitely takes that mindset shift, right? To recognize, it’s not like one life I’m unschooling or I’m not unschooling. It’s when you get to the roots of the relationship and start looking at your days and your lives from there. It’s just a fundamentally different way. And unschooling is one of the choices.
I think when you take that journey to recognize the importance and value of the relationships, the school choice is just a choice. Whether or not school happens to be part of your lives for a season or for however long it works, the fundamental difference is that it’s still a choice.
ANNA: That’s what I was gonna say. It’s choice and agency, right? That’s the fundamental difference.
And that’s why it feels different. That’s why the families on the network that have kids that have gone back to school, it feels so different because it’s choice and agency that’s driving it versus have to and cultural expectation. And so it’s just really interesting to tease apart how different the same thing can feel when you’re coming at it from that deeply rooted place that you’re talking about.
I love that. Okay. So for me, one of the big, big ones that has changed, I would say kind of refined and we’ve honed in on it, is this idea that people are different and how that permeates everything.
In the early days, we talked a lot about celebrating the uniqueness of our children. We talked about coming up with solutions that worked for everyone, taking the time to listen, to understand all these different perspectives. So the groundwork was there for that understanding.
But something really clicked when we started talking specifically about how people are different because we are so different. We process information so differently. We prioritize things differently. We see and experience the world differently. There are so many ways that we are different. It is endless.
And it’s funny because Nora in the network just was sharing on one of our weekly calls, another one that popped up for her, another people are different thing. And she was talking about what motivates us to complete a task because she was noticing that she and her husband really take these very opposite approaches. He likes to make the task easy. She likes to make the task interesting. And so they’re coming at this in a very, very different way. And it’s just another way that they’re different.
One is not better than the other. One is not right or wrong. And when we start with that fundamental understanding that our brains are unique and we all have our own way of moving through the world, we can let go of the defensiveness. We don’t have to defend our way of being. We don’t have to convince someone else to see it our way or that our way is right. We can get curious.
And we talk about that so much. We can start enjoying the process of understanding ourselves and others without getting stuck on there being a right way or a better way, which we’ve also touched on this month. And I’m not going to tangent off into all the differences because they’re just literally too many. But it definitely comes up in the podcast. We’ve talked about it there. We talk about it a lot on the network.
But what I’m getting at today is really this more general open curiosity about exploring the ways that we’re different and ultimately celebrating them and getting excited about these different ways, not taking them personally, not being defensive, just getting excited and thinking how cool it is. Because when we feel that defensiveness slip away, it really leaves space for this deeper, more meaningful connection and a deeper understanding, again, of both ourselves and those around us.
I think it’s been so interesting because just understanding that people are different has helped me learn more about myself. Because there’s something that allows me to realize, that’s actually really important to me. That’s the way my brain works. That’s the way I need something to be presented or the way I need to move through something.
I felt before it was more external, I’m just trying to push my way through or this is how it has to be done. I don’t know how to explain it, but the nuance of that really has helped me understand myself more, understand my relationships more, the people in my life more. This is a piece I’m going to be exploring and talking about the rest of my life because it’s just so fundamental.
ERIKA: It’s such a huge paradigm shift. It has helped me so, so, so much. It’s almost hard to talk about the depth of what this is doing in my mind to be able to think this way. What I can remember is that before these big mindset shifts, it was more like, I want to find out the right way to do this thing or the right way to be like this. If something’s hard for me, that’s something that I should work on. If something’s hard for someone else, that’s the area they need to improve or that kind of thing.
Rather than just saying, this thing is hard for me, that other thing is hard for you. Working to our strengths and realizing our differences. I love the part about how it makes communicating about ourselves with other people easier.
It just has none of that fighting energy, none of this kind of argument energy of like, you’re doing it wrong, I’m doing it right, or I feel like I need to just keep apologizing for myself because I just can’t get my stuff together. I can’t handle this for whatever reason. And so just realizing all of these different layers at which we are just so different from each other and accepting it has been a complete game changer in all of my relationships.
I can start to notice why that thing has always bothered me about how that person does it. It’s just because that doesn’t make sense to my mind. So I feel like anytime we come upon something that someone else is doing and we say to ourselves, it just doesn’t make sense. Why are they doing that? It doesn’t make any sense. Then that’s our clue of like, we’ve hit upon people are different again, because it makes sense to them. And yeah, it’s just so deep and rich and one of my favorite topics.
PAM: Yeah, yeah, me too. And it’s another beautiful example of how unschooling is a window because, like you were talking about Anna, at first, we have always used that language when it comes to our kids, because that’s kind of where I first discovered how different people could be. And that it felt wrong to correct them because it was working for them.
They just they did it their way. And it was working out fine. And I was like, oh, it was part of my whole journey around mistakes are bad, right? They did it this way. And that was different than the way I would have ever thought to do it. And look, it still worked. So, that was the fundamental first observation. I think that that set me down this path.
There are just so many layers, because then it was like, oh, there’s a reason they did it that way. You see that consistency over time. I realized they just think about this differently than I do. That’s interesting. And I could see how my kids were different.
And then you start questioning that age component, right? I can see how I like to do things in particular ways, and then it just starts layer by layer. You find all the different ways, discover more ways that people are different, you discover that it’s not just kids who are different, they’re people. They are whole people. I do even remember when that phrase first popped up. But it just encapsulated everything so beautifully.
And, and it sounds so simple on the surface, people are different. We say that to anybody and people think, of course, but it’s just so fundamentally different and deeper. And once you start using that lens, when I see somebody doing something, and think, I would never do it that way. Go to how people are different, rather than they’re doing it wrong, I should tell them how to do it properly, or more effectively, or more efficiently, or whatever lens we used before. We have improved with the way we choose to do it, to instead use that people are different lens. Oh, and yes, what great framing for conversations, right? Because it’s not judging the way that they’re doing it.
Once they can get on that same page, when we’re coming at this with language that isn’t fighting them, isn’t trying to fix them. Conversations about it are just so much more interesting, because then we’re actually learning about ourselves and learning about other people. And then we can bring that consideration with us forward, right? It’s so cool.
ERIKA: And yeah, it’s making me remember that there’s so much coming at us in any given moment, so much sensory information, right? And everyone’s brain is picking the part that we’re paying attention to. And so you can’t even say, we were all there, how did they not have the same experience as I did? It’s because they didn’t. They literally didn’t see or hear or feel it the same. It could be a completely different experience from one person to another. So it makes sense why we’re all so different.
So anyway, the one I came up with for this question, thinking about what has changed about my understanding over the years, is when I was first learning about unschooling, I was so focused on what it meant for the kids. What they were doing, or weren’t doing. What I was doing for them? What I was choosing not to do for them? So basically, how to approach my days with them. And with all that focus just going towards them. And over time, that has changed with the realization, and I’m sure it came from the podcast too, that the unschooling journey is my journey to take.
Unschooling is really about me letting go of old messages and patterns, digging into the layers to figure out why I react like this. Or healing a lot of old wounds that can get triggered by parenting. And so, it’s really a journey of growth for myself, that then benefits my relationships with my children. And since I’m willing to look at myself and learn and grow, they gradually have a parent who is more aware, more resourced, and better equipped to support them.
And it’s this beautiful upward spiral. And it’s not to say that it’s easy, or that the upward spiral is just going up and up all the time. But I think it’s actually a bit harder because I need to focus on myself and my baggage and all of that in order to move forward.
In fact, I know we mention all the time that one of the red flags that we’re stressed or maybe have too much on our plates is when we start focusing outside of ourselves and trying to control other people, control our children. It’s so much easier to say, you’re doing this wrong, I need you to get better, than it is to look inside of ourselves. And I think a lot of mainstream parenting is really focused in that way on controlling the kids and looking for the problems that the kids have, rather than exploring why we’re so activated by certain things that the kids are doing and making changes in ourselves.
But I think changing that kind of generational trauma and that generational story, the old patterns, that really has to start with me. And while the kids are focusing on the things they’re interested in and growing and gaining skills, I can focus on becoming more and more true to myself, and just de-schooling all of those internalized beliefs that I took on as I was growing up. And my kids are really great guides in this kind of work, because they’re just naturally so much more in tune with who they are.
They have not internalized nearly as many limiting beliefs as I have. And so looking at them inspires me to continue, because I think this is big, challenging work to do, but it’s so valuable. And sometimes I can’t even believe how much I’ve changed and grown through my unschooling journey.
And I’m really proud of all the work that I’ve put into it. And I’m happy that I can live more truthfully now with my family. I really think it’s changed our relationships.
PAM: I love the idea of more truthfully. I love that phrase, because that is what it feels like. And I too had that realization. At the beginning of the journey because, my kids left school. So it was like, what are we going to do instead of school?
And it was all very outwardly focused at first. But then as I discovered unschooling, and those kinds of questions started bubbling up, then the shift, then that is something if you listen to the podcast archive, you will hear people echo. Especially when I do like 10 questions episodes, where we really dive deeper into people’s journeys. It’s like, it really was all about me, it really is all so much my work to do alongside supporting them.
But if I don’t do this work, I am putting so much on top of our relationship, and our days that is just doing pretty much nothing but getting in the way. It was just a huge thing.
And, you know, as you said, Erika, it can be such a great clue when we notice we’re starting to look outside. I’m feeling overwhelmed, I just need to control other things, just to settle things down. But that is such a great clue to examine, why am I feeling so overwhelmed? Why am I feeling beyond capacity? That is just a useful clue. And not judging right, wrong, good, bad.
Now, if you listen to this podcast for a little while, you know it’s not about that. But these are all great clues that help us ask better questions that just help us learn more and live more truthfully. Like that’s why that phrase struck me. So, that was really cool.
ANNA: Yeah, I love that, too. And this was definitely a part of my journey. Because we come from this culture that’s so externally focused, do it this way, do the right path, do the thing, you know, all of these pieces. And so, really learning it’s all about me is huge. I don’t know if it’s in the Summit, or one of my early talks but it’s literally called “It’s all about me.” Because that was this big revelation, they’re fine. They know how to do these things. They know how to learn and grow and make mistakes and be in the world. It’s me that has all these things to unlearn and unpack to get to that place of alignment of truth of who I am and who I want to be.
And that was just amazing to me. It’s terrifying. And it’s empowering, right? It’s kind of terrifying, wait a minute, now I need to look at all these pieces. But that I can change, right? I think when we’re so externally focused it’s harder. I can’t change David, I can’t change my girls. They are their own people. And so when we get that, it’s easier. I love that red flag piece too. When I’m out there trying to micromanage everybody around me, it really means probably something’s not feeling good for me, something’s happening for me. And so, again, it can be scary to look at that and do that work. But it is also the thing I can control, which is me, how I move through the world. And so then that kind felt exciting.
So yeah, this was another huge one for me that just really keeps coming back around. Oh yeah, it’s me again. It’s not them. It’s me.
ERIKA: I mean, it makes it easier, right? In a way. We have control over that part.
ANNA: Yeah.
ERIKA: If it’s soothing to think, maybe nothing’s wrong with those kids. Maybe they’re just living their lives. So, thanks so much to both of you for sharing your reflections.
This was really fun. And to everyone listening in their podcast feed or watching on YouTube, we appreciate you joining us. In our next episode, we will be diving into the question of what still matters to us.
And so we also invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. We’re offering a free month trial so you can come and see what it’s for yourself. And if you enjoy the kinds of conversations we have on the podcast, there’s a good chance that the network might be a great fit for you as well. I hope to see you there. To learn more and join us, follow the link in the show notes or go to our website, which is livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a wonderful day.
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