PAM: Hi everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I’m here with Luminara King. Hi, Luminara!
LUMINARA: Hi Pam!
PAM: Hi! A quick introduction. I came across Luminara online a few months ago, and have enjoyed her unschooling perspective, and I wanted to chat with her and learn more about her journey and experience. She has a blog, a book about deschooling, and a really fun intro video on her website. We’ll learn more about all that as we chat, but to get started …
Can you share with us a bit about you and your family and how you came to unschooling?
LUMINARA: Yes, I can!
PAM: Yay!
LUMINARA: Well, I’m a former Steiner teacher, Steiner-Waldorf teacher, and I was a fully paid up member, believing that was the only way to educate children. And then I left due to becoming ill actually, and we didn’t go back. And then my daughter was in kindergarten, which she really enjoyed actually. And then she moved up to class one, which was more formal lessons, and I started to notice that she wasn’t thriving, that she became very withdrawn, and she was very overwhelmed by it all, and so we took her out!
And the idea was, as I was a qualified Steiner teacher, that we would do Steiner school at home. I had a friend make the very beautiful Steiner school chalkboard for our kitchen at home, and I bought all the curriculum, and for a while just did the days almost the same routine as if she was at school.
And after a few months she started to become resistant, resisting to sit down with me, and it just became such a struggle that I thought, oh this just is not working, you just end up arguing with each other. I thought “Oh, this is just not a nice way to spend the day.” So I let it go, and the idea was just to let it go for a few months and then to come back to it later.
But I started to find out about unschooling, sort of online, and through other people, and through a friend. And slowly, little steps, it started to unravel my ideas around education, and just being with children, actually. And yeah, and then it kind of was, that was it! We never went back!
And the blackboard is still up, and it hasn’t been used in many years, apart from what happens now is my daughter loves to do a chalk drawing for each season or every celebration, and so that’s it. It actually hasn’t had any sort-of formal education in quite a long time!
PAM: I remember that too! I had a white board that did that. I put it up at first, thinking “Oh, I’ll be able to show them things really easily,” and then a month later, we were just all drawing on it. That is really interesting. So was it a friend, or how did you first hear the term unschooling to know to even start looking at it?
LUMINARA: It was a friend actually, who’d been unschooling. She was really amazing, because I couldn’t do this without having the support I had at the beginning and that’s kind of why I decided to do the blog and the book actually.
Because the people were absolutely amazing, and you do need that, you need someone to hold your hand I think, because it’s quite scary sometimes. I had a friend and she was unschooling her two daughters, and she was just on the other end of the phone, so as I was saying “this isn’t working” and “that’s not working” and you know “my daughter just doesn’t want to come and sit and do things.” And she was saying, “Oh I’ve been through that,” and kind of just said “Have you heard of unschooling?” And yeah just looking it up online really, and finding lots of things about it on there.
You know, it’s quite difficult to let that go and that’s why it’s important to have those people, because you have a lot of questions come up, so it’s so lovely to have somebody that you can just call up on the telephone or if you can meet for cup of tea and kind of share these concerns. And if they’ve been there before it’s quite wonderful to have that reassurance that actually it will be ok if you don’t force children to sit down and do a curriculum.
PAM: I know, that is huge, because just finding some place, like I know for me it was online, because I didn’t know anyone in my geographical area. Because if you ask those questions of the other people in my life, I would have gotten very different answers, not the kind of answers I was looking for, right?
So finding a place where you can ask those questions or even just express those concerns with people who have the same goals that you are trying to reach, so that you are going to get answers from that mindset, from that perspective.
LUMINARA: Yeah, yeah…
PAM: You have written a book called Unschooling: 7 Steps To Beginning The Journey and you have a great chapter about learning.
I really love how you describe becoming an unschooling parent as training to be a zen master. You wrote that “you learn the delicate art of allowing and following the flow of your children’s learning, when to offer up ideas and when to step back.” That stepping back piece can be hard like as you were talking about earlier, to figure out, as you move toward unschooling, can’t it?
LUMINARA: I think it has to be the hardest.
PAM: Yeah!
LUMINARA: Yeah, it does, it does. It is, it is! I really do feel it is like being a zen master. You have to feel—you just have to sense it, you know?! And It’s something that you can’t ask of anyone else. You can get support from other people, but I think what it comes down to again is this idea that, and I’m sure you agree, and I know many unschooling families agree with this, that unschooling actually is about relationship, about relationships we build with our children.
And that becomes something very special and unique, and it is in those relationships that we can sense what our children’s needs and interests are, and when they need our help and guidance, and when they need to be left alone, and it’s quite hard to explain that to other people who aren’t in the same situation, because they follow more of a structured way of learning. So for me, it is almost like being a zen master or shaman or medicine woman. It has more to do with your sense of things than…does that make sense?
PAM: And you’re right, It’s so hard to put into words, isn’t it?
LUMINARA: It’s such a feeling, rather than anything that comes from the mind or, yeah…
PAM: And I think your point is well taken, that it’s so much to do with the relationship, because it’s so much to do with deeply understanding our children, in that you can get a sense at that point as to the motivation is behind their actions, as in that’s when you can start to sense if they’re looking around for some more input, some more help, some more support, or whether they are really focused on figuring this thing out for themselves, or maybe you just physically being nearby for moral support rather than actual learning support.
And you start to learn to tell the difference. And you’re not always going to get it right! But with that connected relationship, they’ll be able to say “no not right now, I don’t need that help. I don’t want that help right now.” Because you’ve created that connection and that trust. I think that’s the relationship and the trust that you develop over time.
Just seeing people, seeing human beings in action that you know that there may be moments that they just want to do it themselves and to be left alone. Does that makes sense?
LUMINARA: That does make sense. I do agree. I think there is an element, especially when you first come to unschooling, there is an element of having to unravel our beliefs around education and how children learn. You know, a wonderful book, that I always, if anyone asks me about what we do when it comes to unschooling, I say to them, “Read Peter Gray’s book Free to Learn.” That’s right, I think that’s the title.
Well, he says it all there, doesn’t he? This idea that children really don’t need our interference, yet we can be, as you said, as facilitators, if they want help. And you know, I mean I do suggest things! I do suggest things. I know what their interests are. I know what they like!
If there is something on in the theatre or an exhibition in a museum, I say “Would you like to go to this?” That’s kind of how I see my role, really. If they come to you and say, well a good example is actually, and I know she won’t mind me saying this, my daughter saying to me said “I think I’d like to take singing lessons! Is that a possibility? Could we find someone?” Yeah, we can have a look, see what we can do.
PAM: And that’s not one of those things you want to worry about, when you’re keeping a bit of a distance, you don’t want to leave the impression that it’s hands off, leave them to fend for themselves. Because yeah you’re right, you’re trying to help them have enjoyable days, so if you see things out in the world that you think they might find interesting or fascinating or just a passing tidbit, yeah, you’re going to share that stuff with them, because you’re filling up their world with them, right?
LUMINARA: Yeah! I also think it’s how they see you as well, I mean, I love learning, and I have so many interests, and I get very excited about them. I’m passionate about many, many things. Art and music and writing and, you know, and whippets—I love whippets. And they see that! They see that joy that I have in being out and learning about the world, and they’re not always interested in what I’m interested in. But they do see how I find the resources, yeah, and the world can be a very exciting and fascinating place.
PAM: It’s not about them necessarily enjoying everything that you enjoy, but it’s about seeing you explore the world, right? That’s one thing I often like to share. It’s not like we’ve decided, or it’s less helpful if we decide we want our children wanting to have a different sort of life, and we are raising them this different way for certain reasons, it’s also about us as parents also living that life that we want for them.
This is what we are imagining as adults, they’ll still be curious, they’ll still be feeling creative, they will wholeheartedly throw themselves into whatever they are interested in, and we want that for ourselves, too, right? Not only it is a really fun way to live, it shows them that it isn’t just for kids, it isn’t just a kid thing that you are doing. This is a way to approach your days, no matter what your age, right?
LUMINARA: Yeah, and it’s that thing that, ugh, oh! I should know her name, and I apologize to her if she listens to this and I haven’t go it, but, oh god, I feel really bad! [NOTE: It’s Jessica Robinson.]
PAM: I’ll put it in the show notes!
LUMINARA: Ok! A wonderful blog that I read very short was about how unschooling- so it’s not that not going to school leaves a deficit in the day, you know, we are not not going to school as an alternative to school, as you said. This is a way of life, not just when you’re a child, but when you’re a grown up. It’s a way of life.
PAM: I love that, that it’s not a deficit, it’s not about what you’re taking out. It’s about what you’re filling it up with!
You also have a fun intro to unschooling on your website, and you mention how Lego unschooling was a catalyst in your journey to unschooling. I was hoping you could share that story a little bit!
LUMINARA: Yes, I can! Oh, I do love Lego. This is a perfect example of having support and someone to talk to and share with at the beginning of your journey. As a Steiner teacher, you know, basically there’s no plastic, and like I said, I really believed in that whole philosophy. And there are some really beautiful parts to it. But one of the things is that children, and especially younger children, don’t have any plastic toys, there is no plastic toys, no brightly colored toys, or noisy toys.
And we had lots of wooden toys. And my son is very different—when he was born he was, I do think he was a real catalyst for us discovering unschooling as well because, he wouldn’t fit in my mold as a perfect Steiner child.
I would buy him these wooden toys, and my husband would said “You know you are buying these for yourself don’t you, not for him, right?” And I would say “No, no! They’re for him!” He just from the beginning loved mechanical things, he like bright colors, and this is when he was two. I remember ringing a friend, she was a homeschooling and an unschooling friend and she had four boys, and I called.
“Help! My son is climbing the walls! I just don’t know what to do!” And she said, “Look, lovely, you need to go and get Lego.” And I said “what? But isn’t it all plastic?” And she said, “No trust me. I really would suggest you go and get Lego.”
So that very afternoon we went to the supermarket and bought the biggest tub of Lego that we could find and brought it home and oh wow, that was it. And still to this day, he still has a great love of Lego, and the creativity is just astounding. And the idea that I would have not allowed that in his life if I had continued to hold on to this quite rigid idea about not allowing certain toys and technologies into their lives, my children’s lives, we would be quite sad, because it is amazing what he builds. It’s really, really impressive. And you can see that he can get so much pleasure from it!
PAM: Yeah, I get goosebumps from listening because you can really imagine him just diving in, right? That’s, yeah, that’s really cool.
LUMINARA: Yeah, it really was quite a beautiful moment.
PAM: Yeah, I can imagine it. Wow.
I love the blog post that you had about embracing averageness, because I think there is such a valuable shift in there that can help us parents shed our expectations that we might not realize we are still carrying about who our children should become in the future, because that really interferes with how we see them today, doesn’t it?
LUMINARA: Yeah, that is so true. I think we have to be really aware of putting pressures on our children, especially when we are doing something different than the mainstream school and we are doing unschooling or even traditional homeschooling. As parents, we sometimes get this feeling that people are standing on the sidelines waiting for us to fail, waiting for our children to fail so they can point their finger and say “I told you that was a crazy idea!”
So, I think it’s something to be really aware of. I see it, I see it online a lot. I mean, it is wonderful that children are doing TED talks at the age 9 years, I mean it’s great, and they might end up being at Cambridge or Stanford and universities and you know, it’s wonderful, but not all children are going to be like that, and that’s ok!
That’s something I’ve really struggled with over the years and something I’ve really let go of. I mean, I’ve asked myself questions like “What if my son just wants to be a postman?” Or a mailman in the US. Or, “What if our daughter just wants to get married and have children and be a homemaker?” How does that feel? You know. It’s quite a journey. And it’s OK. I feel it’s another layer of deschooling because I think that comes from, again, the pressure that the children feel in school. You know “What is success?” Success, is it linked to money or is it linked to happiness?
PAM: Yeah, I think that is such an awesome point, because if you think…yeah, and it is our work again, and I think it is a big part of unschooling, that as we are getting used to the idea, of… investigating what expectations, and as you said, I think they are tied up in what are idea of success is and when you’re worried and you’ve got people in your lives and you feel like they are watching you extra hard because you are doing something that is less conventional.
So you are feeling the pressure to show them that, “See, that worked,” and then you get caught up again looking at conventional measures of success. And then you think about those kids who do these things, and then, all a part of your deschooling, you realize that those are things that are important to them, but they weren’t—I mean, and I don’t know them personally, but because they came from an unschooling environment—they weren’t likely pressured to do those things because they look good, it was just something that they personally found interesting.
That’s when you get to the point that whatever it is that MY children personally find interesting, that’s what we’re going for. It’s asking yourself, what if something they find interesting may just be very conventionally mainstream, but then again we know they are choosing it from a different place. And when they are choosing it because it is interesting to them, they won’t see it as a “failure.” A conventional person looking in might say, “Oh, you’re only a postal worker…” whereas they are like “Yay! I’m doing this, something that I enjoy.”
Maybe what they are enjoying is a more defined time for work so they aren’t bringing work home, that they are not having pressure, maybe they are bringing home money to do other things they enjoy. They are making choices in their lives that may sense to them, not making choices because of other expectations around them that they feel pressured to meet. Does that makes sense?
LUMINARA: It does! It does!
And I think that as parents we have to be very careful because there is a real tendency to jump on any interest they have, and just run away with it. I do have to hold myself back too because it’s part of my personality to get very excited about things, and it’s kind of how I work with myself, but I have to be really respectful of how my son’s personality and my daughter’s personality is.
And my daughter, and I said earlier that she’s shown an interest in singing, and I always thought she had a really beautiful voice, and I’ve always tried to encourage her, but she’s always said, “No no no.” And now when she said that, there’s a difference to my attitude now, whereas a couple of years ago I might have said “Oh yes, and then you could sing, and you could do YouTube videos, and then you could do a competition, and then you could go to the Royal School of Music, and then you might be a great…” And she’s just looking on like “What?! I just want to have some singing lessons!” Like no pressure, eh?!
And that is part, and I’m sure that comes from, that is part my personality as well, I have to be honest about that, I get very excited about things, but also it did used to come from a place of fear and as you’re saying, and that idea of because “Oh, and then you’ll be a success, and you can say to those people, unschooling wasn’t a radical hippie wishy-washy thing, she’s now in the royal opera house singing.” But the poor kids! The ones being subjected to their parent’s fears, really, so yeah.
PAM: Yeah that’s a good point, because when we start planning it out, then we take it out of their hands, and all of the sudden there aren’t really choices, and then they feel more obligation to try and follow through for you rather than for them, and then when she’s wanting to continue lessons or change teachers or whatever, they first filter it though our expectations rather than just being about to consider their own needs. I think it makes their choices so much harder because there is so much crap in there!
LUMINARA: Yeah, they often don’t want to do it, they’ll walk away because you know, who would want to do that. I said to my husband “I think I want to take up horse riding” and he says, ”Oh yes! And then you could do dressage, and then you could travel, and then you could win the…” And then you just go “Well, I don’t want to do it now,” because you’ve taken all the joy out of exploring this myself. Now I feel all this pressure because you planned this all out for me. No wonder we just walk away from things.
PAM: Yeah because it just plops really high-level goals on top of something that you are just exploring to see if you like it or not!
You mentioned on your website that you have a college degree. So I was wondering if you could share your perspective on college nowadays.
LUMINARA: Yeah, college is an interesting one, that keeps shifting for me. I don’t have a black and white answer to it, you know? I was thinking about, I always say to people, you know Ken Robinson, you know his TED talk? I’m not sure if it’s in his Do schools kill creativity? talk or another one [Bring on the learning revolution! or Changing education paradigms].
He said about, if you are going to go to college, you might want to go later after you have some experience in the world. And I think that’s great advice. I don’t know how it is in the US, but here in the UK, the government has put the fees up quite high for students again, so it’s becoming really, really expensive to go to college, so one of these ideas came to me recently, as I was working myself, actually. I was working with a printmaker in his studio, and he’s just an amazing man, and he has been doing printmaking for many, many years he has a wonderful studio with fantastic press, and he had lots of time to devote to each of us, and there were only seven of us, so he had lots and lots of time to devote to each of us, helping us with the processes, and to talk about the history of printmaking.
And as I left I thought to myself, “Is it really worth spending 9,000 pounds on a degree? I think that’s a year as well. I could be wrong, it’s been a long time since I went. Imagine how that money could be used to be in contact with professional people like this, and would there be more value in that because this person is actually working right now in the field that you’re interested in, and having access to a professional studio that has equipment in it.
That was a turning point for me, and that just happened a few weeks ago. And so, we are encouraging both our children to think in a way that is more … to be entrepreneurs really, and sort of saying “You don’t have to work for someone, you can work for yourself.” But I never thought of that in that way, saying all this money that we could spend, could it be spent going around, finding, almost becoming an apprentice to some people who have been in the industry you want to be in for a long time.
PAM: And depending on what your interest is, maybe even buying, almost giving yourself permission to instead spend that money on supplies and stuff, so that you can actually get high quality paint or kilns or potters wheels, and that kind of stuff, and saying, you know, I’m going to find, it is easier these days with the internet, to find people who are practicing these arts, whether it’s physical arts or writing or whatever, and to invest in your own personal development, rather than investing through a college program.
LUMINARA: Yeah, yeah. And I do say to both our children, if you want to go to college, that’s fine! But what I say is, “when you go, if you go, go because you really want to do something.” So I’m thinking, if I ever go back to do a masters in art, I would choose the college that would give me the best experience possible, all the equipment I needed, access to professionals.
And if you go to a college interview, you interview the college, don’t let them interview you. You’ve got to change this around. Say “Hey, I’m investing a lot of money here, I need to know what you’re going to give me for all this money, and it’s got to be really good!”
It’s great that there’s a lot of competition out there because of the web, of um, competition with colleges, because I can say “Hey, If I don’t feel you can give me the great experience I want I’ll spend my money elsewhere,” as you said, buying professional materials and online courses, maybe.
PAM: That’s a great point there, and college is just another choice on the learning platter, right? When you’re talking about going from that mindset and to approach it from, “There is something I want to learn more about. Here’s all the ways I might go about that, college might be one of those options.” And investigating further and figuring out which path you want to try. Even going to college doesn’t meant that you have to stay and finish. And it’s not what you were expecting, again then, it’s ok to leave or not go back, because you know what, I want to try another way to learn, because that didn’t meet the goals that I had for the experience, or whatever.
But, yeah, to think of it more as an option, certainly a valid choice if it’s going to help you meet whatever goals or interests you want to pursue, right? I know we, uh, I know I’ve mentioned it on the podcast before, when we were talking to family, when Lissy got her artist’s visa to go to New York for photography, because she had been looking at college programs as well, we just kind of said, “You know what, the money we are investing for the artist visa application, think of it like money for college, except she’s going down to New York City to meet and network and learn more about photography that way.” But we tried to make the equivalency to college just to help them understand that she’s not just going off to play or whatever, but I mean, she is! Because learning is so joyful and playful and enjoyable, but it helped sometimes for them to make the connection that this was an investment, that it was worth it!
Another hot topic I wanted to talk to you about is “screen time” and I put that in air quotes, you didn’t see my hands because I know we don’t have video, because I think the phrase itself can be part of the problem, because it lumps together so many different activities and part of deschooling is teasing all that out. So I was wondering what has your experience been?
LUMINARA: Oh yes, screen time. Yeah, well, as you can imagine from my views from when I was a Steiner teacher, which was “technology is bad,” has completely changed, and now I would say I’m quite an advocate for technology, and it’s very interesting because now I’m on the other side of it.
Because when I was a Steiner teacher, I’d be with other parents kind of saying, “Oh yes, technology is really bad. You have to be really careful. It does all this damage.” And now I’ve switched over to going, “Oh technology is fantastic.” It’s really quite a flip! And I’ve given a lot of thought to this. I sense that there is a lot of fear around technology, not in the unschooling world, but outside of that. And I think that as unschoolers, all of us are actually—a friend put it really lovely—trailblazers, that’s the word, isn’t it, and for and we are going off and it’s quite progressive.
For some people they find that quite difficult, who are not unschooling, and I just notice so much distrust of children, and the way that they use screen time. So this is the story that I always tell people, and it could be a completely wrong story, a myth, but it’s on the internet! And I like it! But you may know this, so apparently the first steam trains that came along, people were terrified of them and they didn’t want to ride on them because they thought if they went that fast they would faint or even die. So, I always think of it like that! The older generation is quite fearful of the progressiveness of the new generation.
And it happens with music too, doesn’t it? A lot of us would think it bizarre that Elvis Presley’s music would have been thought of as radical and progressive, and by the older generation, it was, at the time. And I kind of see technology in this way. So that’s all kind of…yeah, this screen time thing…I mean, what are your thoughts on it? Pass that back to you, Pam!
PAM: {raucous mutual laughter} Well, I’m going to add a story, because you were talking about fear of technological development, and it’s another one that I haven’t verified, but I’m pretty sure it was through conversations on Sandra Dodd’s website, or from the lists, etc. The fear that came around when the printing press, you know, wide public access to books came around, they really feared that people’s minds would turn to mush because they wouldn’t have to remember all these things, that they would read them in books. They wouldn’t have to tell stories. They wouldn’t have to have these oral gatherings. So there was this real fear. Sometimes it’s useful to do that, because at this point we are in this kind of book worship, where if you read books it’s awesome, but, so it helps to just throw out some examples of fear that just comes because of change.
And I think that’s a huge piece of screen time, because I mean, this technology is really new, isn’t it? I mean, I was in high school when computers first just started that you could first get something at home to work on, and we did because my dad was in the computer field. So we had them relatively early in their lifecycle, so maybe that helped me get used to it too.
But if you call it screen time, you just kind of stop, because you called it a screen, whether it be a phone or a TV show or a game. There are just so many things that you can be doing! For me, they are tools. It’s not just one activity like “Oh, he’s on his screens.” It’s taking that next step to see what they’re using it for, what they’re doing on it. You know, is it entertainment? Which is a perfectly valid, but I do most of my business on it, I write on it, I research. You know, it helps us get around! Like when we were driving around at the karate tournament, we had google maps out helping us avoid some closures. It is a useful tool!
And when you see your kids, earlier on we were talking about that close connection and that relationship that you build, you start to learn more about them when you take the time to see what they are using it for, it’s another way to connect with them. I remember when we first started, I had all those conventional ideas about, like at that time, there weren’t cell phones, it was video games, console video games, I mean some handhelds, the really new ones. And I just said, you know what, I had this community of unschoolers that were telling me that, you know what, it’s not so bad, they haven’t steered me wrong yet! So, I’m going to take the time and look.
So I said to myself, “You know, it’s not going to be a big deal! I’m going to sit and hang out and to watch.” And I was really careful not to say much, because I knew Joseph already had a feeling that I was uncomfortable, and I did previously try to control when he played and so on. So I just observed and when I could drop it, drop my fears, really, it’s not just trying to push them down, it’s like, I know I feel that, but I’m still just going to try to see, because he loves it so much, let me try figure out why.
Because that was really the question, I want to see what he is getting out of it that makes it so incredibly interesting that he wants to do it this long and this often. And it was amazing! After a month of so, once I got to the “Oh wow, this is what he’s doing on there,” I got to the facilitator point, I wanted to help him and I’m looking up walkthroughs etc.
I saw it as this lovely and interesting tool, because I could see the skills that he was learning through using those tools, were the same things that my other kids were learning in other ways. It was just another way to learn things, a way that he was very curious about, a way that engaged him, and his personality and the things he liked, so that is how I got rid of my fear about it was through information, and not, you know, through the conventional messages, but what I saw through my own kids. And, like I said, it was even pulling together what I saw from my kids that were not gaming as well as my kid who was gaming. So I could see them all learning the same sorts of things, just through different tools.
So that was probably a long answer, but that’s how I got there.
LUMINARA: Yeah, it’s great it’s great. Yeah that really resonates with me. It’s funny because somebody said to me you know a little while ago, “Have you tried to see what it’s like if you take the iPad off of him for a week?” And I thought—I would never do that! It’s his work! I mean, this is what some people find very difficult to understand. I mean yeah, it’s play, sure, but play, learning, it goes hand in hand.
And for every sort of fear that I hear people say about technology, there is something really good about these tools as well. You said this so different depending on what they’re using. I’m always amazed of what my children learn just by exploring by themselves on YouTube and things! It’s great. My son will often come in and tell me stories about things. He’s very interested in World War One and World War Two, and he comes in, and I wasn’t even out of bed, and he said, “Mum, did you know that Hitler nearly drowned when he was a child?” And I was like “No, no, I didn’t” And he said “And so now, the man who saved him, he wasn’t sure now about how he felt about the fact that he did save him.” And so then we went into this discussion about the moral dilemma about, “If you knew that it was Hitler when he was a child, and you knew the future of what he was going to do, would you save him?” And then we are talking about “Would you let a child drown?” I find it pretty amazing, actually, and often they will come to me and tell me these fantastic things, and it will spark off all these interesting ideas and conversations.
And I feel like, you know, for them, I feel like that must be very empowering. They’re not sort of sitting there waiting for it all to come from me or a teacher in school, they are just diving in because of all this technology they have access to. And also they can take it in so many different directions!
My son’s a big Minecraft fan, and that goes off in all kinds of different directions for him. I find it to be a really exciting time. But I also kind of understand how parents feel, because we are the first generation of parents who have had children who have access to so many different screens, and we are kind of finding our way through it, and sometimes I do wobble out and I think, “Oh, they’ve been on that for a long time,” and I might go in and say “Oh, you know, they’ve been on that for many hours,” and they say “Oh yeah, I’m going to go and take a break now,” or they say “Actually I’m in the middle of building something, and I really need to do it.” So, I still have my wobbles about it, but Peter Gray again has written some really great articles about particularly video games, which have a lot more layers to it and depth than people think.
PAM: Yeah, I think that’s the problem, that when you stop at “screen time,” what you imagine, because you just see a child looking at a screen, you think it’s a very passive activity. And as you said, look at all the conversations and ideas and places you go when you open up and really start paying attention, understanding that the spark came from something that they saw or did through that technology, and notice all the different places that that takes them. But without that, you think it’s just a passive thing, so the question, because I’ve had that too, they’ve been doing that for hours, the same thing that I would do when Lissy was up in her bedroom reading books for hours, you know, I’d take her food, I’d take her tea, I’d say, “Do you need anything else?” I mean, you know, when they are deeply engaged in something, whatever the activity is, if it’s been hours, you want to check in and see if…{silly paranoid voice} “Are you alright?!”
LUMINARA: “Are you still alive in there?!” like? {giggling}
You know, as being an artist, I can get really engrossed in something, so when it’s been hours, my concerns really are things like, for my son, “does your back ache? Are you changing positions?” But I have say, that, when I’m working on an art piece, for example, I’ve been working on an engraving, and there’s you know my eyes are starting to go a bit funny and my hands are aching, but I really intensely want to finish this piece!
You know, suffer for your arts, I think sometimes it’s the same for them.
PAM: Absolutely!
LUMINARA: And I do feel sometimes that’s more my role. Particularly for my son, not really for my daughter, I kind of find ways to help him be ok, to be healthy, you know, as you said, bring him food or water and then we got him like a special bean bag so his back could be supported, you know, talking about maybe taking a break if he’s feeling like his eyes are tired and he’s still only nine you know, so I think that’s kind of satisfied my parent, because otherwise there is still a part of me that’s like “Is this Ok?” As a parent, as I was saying being the first generation, all these things coming at us, we’re just winging it a little bit.
PAM: I thought that was a great parallel you made with the art, because like me with my writing, I put in a few extra hours of work writing last week, and my neck was sore for like four days, like I could barely move my neck. But that was my choice, and next time, maybe I won’t choose that, or maybe next time I’ll take extra care of my neck! And to go “Oh, the technology is killing our kids,” that’s not the answer either!
Even if your child has a sore back afterwards, or develops a headache—you don’t put them in a position where you want that to happen, but if that happens, that’s part of how we learn about things, right? Those are experiences that we are going to go, “Oh gee, that happened last time.” We are going to incorporate that next time we make those choices. So as much as we can help them notice those things and make those connections. Maybe your back is sore because you were sitting in that position for a long time, or I know that my neck was sore because I was looking down at the keyboard for more time than I usually did, or making art, or whatever. To not judge whatever tool they were using or activity they were doing. It was how that was in relation to them, to their own body and stuff. Very Cool.
LUMINARA: One more point, if I could, I also think that what I have noticed is that children who can feel their parents fear around it and disapproval, because children get a sense of disapproval, and if they have very strict limits, what tends to happens, is when they go over to a friend’s house who has more freedom, is that child just wants to do that. I find that with many things. With screen time, sugar, that child is often just constantly wanting to do that one thing that they are not allowed to do at home, and I think that is the issue as well, and if we make something wrong, or make something taboo, it almost becomes … I think it’s just a natural human instinct actually, to want to explore it even more.
And also, as you said, then the problem is that, as human beings, we don’t get to learn how to self-regulate in a way, because it’s almost like binge eating. It’s kind of being that thing that’s not allowed and then suddenly they go to somewhere where they can—they go around to Grandma or Granddad’s house where they are fine with that, and then that’s all that the child wants to do because they want to explore this thing that’s very exciting to them. But then they have to fit it all into that time because they know that it’s very limited! I think that’s something that parents need to have awareness about as well.
PAM: Yeah because, your fear, your control, is adding stuff on top of their choices. So their choices aren’t their own, right? Their choice is, “so I’m at Grandmas now, so I need this to be yes yes yes yes yes yes yes, without consideration for any of my other needs, because this is an overriding one because of this artificial framework that’s been placed on me and my life.” They take all that stuff into account.
And it’s human nature to want to explore, especially things like technology and sugar, because they are now in a place where that fear and that control isn’t there—it’s not like they are going to be a criminal for doing it! There’s something to it! People do do this, so I’m going to see! The grass is always greener.
You recently published a post on your blog that was titled “I’ve had enough of justifying our unschooling life!” I could just sense what was behind that one! You also mentioned this in a chapter in your book about dealing with other people’s negative reactions. I was just wondering if you could share some tips for dealing with those moments.
LUMINARA: I think it depends on the situation, and it depends on who you’re talking to. I think maybe the way that you might talk to somebody at the grocery store is different than how you might talk to a grandparent. But what I’ve come to realize—wise or not, I don’t know, I think it was a survival mechanism, actually—is, when you’re out and about, actually, to say as little as possible. I know some homeschoolers, unschoolers are like “No no no, this is your chance to promote unschooling and all that!” But I’m more of a “Why stick your hand in the fire?” kind of person, and I just think you don’t have time to go into everything at the grocery store, you know, at the checkout or wherever.
We’ve got things like “no school today?”
PAM: Oh yeah, I’ve had that a lot, when the kids were younger too.
LUMINARA: Now I just keep quiet, and then one of the children might say “Oh, we’re home educated,” and they might say “Oh, right!” and then that’s it because I’m not engaging, right? I’m just packing the shopping, it’s not what I want to get into.
Or, I have had them go, which I find like “What?! Oh right, so, do you do exams then?” And I’m just like “Oh my god…” So I just try to say something like, “Oh you know, it’s all fine.” I try to just say something like, “Oh, it’s all fine. Well, bye then! Thank you!”
Or I say to people, “Oh, are you interested in homeschooling? I could share with you some links! You could look at…” You know, the big thing is to not go into justifying or explaining or defending yourself. And you can tell, because I’ve also had people, and we’ve been out and about, and they are genuinely interested in how we learn, and you can tell from the tone of voice of the question, whether it’s gonna be loaded and judgemental, or if it’s someone truly interested, and then that’s great! And then I’ve chatted to people and that’s wonderful and that’s out and about.
But you know, with relatives, I know it can be a lot harder. It always comes from their fear, and their concern, a lot of the time, their concern for your children. But again, I have this thing that I don’t think it’s healthy for us as parents or your children to be hanging around with someone who’s going to be constantly negative about your life choices, because in the end you know they are your life choices, and so I think we have to look after ourselves, and you know you can be compassionate to other people, but to look out for ourselves, to be compassionate to ourselves and our children.
PAM: I actually have a couple of blog posts that I wrote about family, about ways that I would try to set up family gatherings for success, but without letting that negative stuff in and the things that I used to do about that. And with the holidays coming up I’ll link to those in the show notes as well.
I love your point about the grocery stores, and how you can really tell the difference when someone is interested like, I’ve spent a half an hour standing in a grocery store aisle answering questions, you know, someone that I knew in passing, and they are like “Oh yeah, hey, you homeschool,” and they were curious. So I’ve had conversations at the dojo, at the grocery story, all over the place.
But then there is your typical polite checkout conversation, or at the dentist, like Kakar Dental Group, or at the doctor, or stuff like that. My fun thing is that so often its just like ‘yes/no.” “Do you have to test?” So, like you said, I would just say “Nope.” Or, “Yep, they don’t go to school.” Or, “Yep, it’s legal,” because I get asked that too. And just with a big smile, and a confident yes or no, and then if they want to, and if they have more questions, and by then, I’ve mostly paid. And sometimes my kids weren’t interested in answering, so I’d just give the quick “They’re homeschooled. They don’t go to school.” And that was it. And if they had little questions, than yep, nope, and on we went.
Because you know what, they’re just trying to make conversation, right? I’m not there to convince them, I’m not trying to go out and around evangelizing homeschooling or unschooling, right? Everybody can at least make their own choices. But if they are curious enough at least to have asked the question with the yes and the no, and if they are curious, they can ask more, they can ask more and find out more later. They can search it or next time I come through, because you know, you start to recognize the check out people, they may start to ask more.
And I’ve had that at the dojo, at one time yes/no and then sometimes later “I’ve heard you guys do this…” So yeah, I really don’t, it’s that feeling that if you get caught up, if you need to justify, that is when it feels like a negative experience or something that you want to avoid. For me, that was the biggest mind shift. As you said, I’ve had enough of justifying our life. I’m going to just, I’ll answer your yes/no question because that’s usually what it is, and then we will just move on. I thought that was awesome.
LUMINARA: And actually it’s no one’s business. It’s your family, and that’s what you’ve got to remember. Sometimes I just think “God, these people are so rude!” Would you ask about how me and my husband deal with our finances? I mean, it’s just bizarre. Do we go out on date night? And that’s what you’ve got to remember.
PAM: It’s a child thing, right? Because they’ll ask someone, what grade are you in, who’s your favorite teacher, what are you doing in math?
LUMINARA: You’re right, I mean one answer I do have to the old socialization question, and you just reminded me, it was a dentist, and it really just surprised me. Actually it was an Orthodontist, And she said “Oh right, so you’re homeschooled, right?” so she just went “So, do you have friends?” Oh my god, really, I’m going to have to answer this.”
So I said “Oh yeah! You know, there’s over 400 families homeschooling in Somerset alone.” Somerset’s our county. Her eyes nearly popped out of her head! And they go “Really?” But that’s the only time actually I will say that. But I know it is more difficult with family members. I try to be gentle, you know, to understand where they are coming from, maybe repeat their question back to them, to try to understand where they’re coming from. And sometimes I just agree with them, like I had one family member saying “What if they don’t get a job? What if this happens and all that?” So I just say “Oh yeah, that is quite a scary thought, isn’t it?” So you’re not justifying, you’re kind of passing the question back. And also, I think sometimes people just want to be heard, especially with family, because usually family care a lot about each other, and usually they just want to be heard.
PAM: It’s something that I did a lot before, when they were younger, and when we were getting ready for family gatherings, especially around the holidays, I would try to set our visits up for success in that I would bring things that the kids enjoyed to do and I would bring these things with them and maybe we would bring games, and we would invite other people to play, so you are setting up an environment where they can connect with the kids and see that they were ok, you know what I mean? Setting up an environment where they could actually have conversations with kids that were not about school or education, because everybody is so set to say “How’s school,” because that’s a kid’s “job”, right?
So to set up other activities that they could do together where you can see that, “Oh wow they can talk,” you can have conversations about their interests and things. That’s one thing that I do, too, I just go up to my sisters-in-law, and I just ask, “What are you interested in? What have you been doing lately? What are your hobbies?” And so often they would just say, “Oh, I don’t really have any.” And that’s another eye opening thing for them that they would realize that they are just stuck really in that work-slash-school for kids, and they would see our kids having fun with games that they brought or toys or board games or cards or whatever, seeing them doing things and being active and just like, not physically active because you’re in somebody’s house, but have things that they were doing and focused on and enjoying, and I would make a point of expressing my enjoyment, pleasure of whatever, whether I was doing it or just with them or just saying, “Hey, isn’t that cool!” Just kind of giving them a glimpse into our lives, right back to that, you know, this isn’t a deficit, this is what we do instead, right?
LUMINARA: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah! And I’m just thinking as you talk about…Also, a lot of unschooled children, because of the way they are having a relationship with their parents and maybe other adults around them, what I notice when we got to family gatherings or anywhere or just with friends, is that my children will listen to adult conversation, and they will join in. My nine-year-old son, in his mind, he has as much right to be part of the conversation as his uncle or his auntie or things, so they may talk about something about a new car they’ve got and he’ll just chirp up and say “Hey, you know, I made a car in Minecraft, and this car is just like this, and like…”
And sometimes, adults are quite taken back by this nine-year-old is just speaking up and going, well, “Hey, I’m part of this conversation! I’m listening to you! I’m here, I’m present. I have something to add to your conversation!” And it’s great. I love that. I love that. Yeah.
PAM: Yeah, just these little glimpses for them, right, of seeing the kids in action, because they are awesome!
LUMINARA: Absolutely! I was just going to say they are very knowledgeable about their own interests so the confidence when they do speak, yeah.
PAM: That’s why it’s so great to focus, to try and let their interests shine because it’s just amazing what they know about what they are interested in. It’s not like they don’t know the curriculum—they are doing other things. It’s not like they are just sitting in a corner of the basement, right? Here’s just a little bit of all the really cool stuff that they do know and they can talk about it for ages if you’re open to that. That’s the piece. OK, our last question!
What has surprised you most about your unschooling journey so far?
LUMINARA: I love this question. This is a really good question. I thought about this. I think this relates to what we were just talking about, actually. I’m just amazed at how much our children are learning, considering they’ve been left alone. I find it astounding. And I see it in other children as well. They find how if they are left alone, they are, how resourceful they are, how fascinated they are in the world, their curiosity. I mean, it’s just never ending. They can go out there themselves, and they can find what they want. Again, because of technology, that’s really helpful. But it never stops. It just kind of constantly from one thing to the next thing, it all just rolls into one. I find that really fantastic to just stand and watch that unfold.
PAM: I know, It’s beautiful, isn’t it? It’s amazing, when you are not on top of them, controlling. Carlo Ricci uses a phrase, “children are capable,” and we don’t see that until we give them the space to be capable, to do things. To make some choices and to actually do things, and it is just brilliantly amazing how capable they really are when they are given the opportunity, isn’t it?
Well, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, Luminara.
LUMINARA: I’ve enjoyed it so much. Thank you so much, Pam.
PAM: Oh yes, it’s been lovely. We’ve had a nice long conversation there haven’t we? Before we go, where is the best place for people to connect you online?
LUMINARA: My blog, livingtheeducationrevolution.co.uk and also Living the Education Revolution Facebook page.
PAM: Excellent, I will have links to both those places in the episode show notes. Thanks again! Have a great night!? Right, you’re in the UK…
LUMINARA: Yep. Have a great day!
PAM: Thanks!