PAM: Welcome. I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I’m here with Jack and Sean O’Brien. Hi, guys!
Just a little intro, I’ve known Jack and Sean’s mom online for a few years now and recently she shared that you guys have been having some really interesting discussions at home about unschooling and how it’s woven its way through your college experiences. And we’re definitely going to get to that. But first just to get it started …
Can you share a bit about you and your family?
JACK: Yeah. So, I’m Jack. Hi. I’m 18. I was unschooled until I was 14 and then I went to high school.
SEAN: I’m Sean. I’m 22. I can’t remember how long I was unschooled, longer than him. I started going to Blue Ridge Community College.
JACK: Well what else? (laughing)
PAM: That introduces you. So, did you go to school before you unschooled at all or you began unschooling and then chose your path later?
JACK: So, my mom started unschooling us when I was a baby. And then Sean was about 4 or 5. So really before school started.
SEAN: Yeah. Mm hmm.
I’m curious to hear what some of your bigger interests were and how you chose to pursue them.
PAM: Why don’t you go first Sean?
SEAN: So, I think a lot of what I was able to do being unschooled, I just played a lot of video games for a really long time. I got really into that and I don’t think I was able to realize the value of that until more recently.
But I eventually got bored of just sitting around playing video games and that’s when I went to Massanutten Technical college or technical school, Technical Centre—that’s the one! I took an animation class there. And so, looking back on that I think that’s really a way that I was able to pursue my interests into something beyond video games.
But even aside from that, I think I just played a lot of games and I think that was actually really, really beneficial because it was nice to get to do what I wanted. And I think I actually learned a lot. From that. I hope.
JACK: I’m going to jump in saying that will be most of my answer probably but I think that it was just an interest and it was fun obviously. But I really do think it was a way to challenge ourselves which was a big thing because when you’re unschoolers you don’t have the same daily homework and all the constant work necessarily.
It’s this really fun, natural way to challenge ourselves and use our brains and do different puzzles and different stuff all the time and in fun ways that actually interested us.
And then like Sean was saying, going to MT was then the continuation of that, was the next step of that natural interest.
I think for me, I started getting into a lot of games where I would work with others online and I would get in teams online and do a lot of communication. I learned so much. I was picking up so much about talking to people and figuring out how do I get my team to work together and stuff. And then that’s totally gone into what I want to do now. I majored in psychology and it’s got people and communication and all of that.
It’s such a passion of mine now. So, I think video games, just the breadth of things you can do with video games.
SEAN: There is something for everyone.
JACK: Yeah, it feels like it will eat into just about every skill, every practical skill.
PAM: Yeah absolutely. I love that you guys said that. I’ve talked to a few grown up unschoolers who found the same thing and I see it with my kids. Video games are the tool. That’s one thing so many parents can’t see. They think, ‘My kid just likes video games.’ But like you said, the breadth of that. There is every topic, every aspect under the sun from the technical side to the social side. One of my sons is very interested in story and he pursues that interest through video games. I want to call it a window to the world, because there are just so many ways you can take it isn’t it.
SEAN: Yeah, definitely.
PAM: And the challenge aspect because as you work through it, the challenge whether it comes from the puzzles or whether it comes from the socializing. Whatever your interest is you can pursue that. So, like you were talking about Jack, that the social aspect was something that you discovered that you really like. So, you were playing online games. For somebody else who isn’t that interested in that aspect, maybe they’re not playing or maybe they’re doing online games but they’re not so involved in the team aspect. They’re more interested in other aspects, does that make sense?
JACK/SEAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PAM: Very cool, very cool.
SEAN: Even just between the two of us there are differences. I think I played online games as well but I never cared as much that they were online. I was just playing them because I liked the game and it happened to be online.
So, you can see the difference between the two of us coming out and my interest in video games.
PAM: That’s spectacular. OK so let’s move on a little bit.
Jack chose to go to high school and Sean, you continued unschooling during those years and then, as you mentioned, you went to that centre. So, I’d be interested in hearing from you guys how those choices came about for you.
JACK: Yeah, it’s interesting because it’s something I’ve already touched on. I wanted to be social and I wanted to meet people and that was really at the core of it, I think. I think if there are faults of unschooling which I guess there certainly are, one of them is it can be lonely sometimes because you don’t have that same mass number of peers around you at all times. You know there are just less unschoolers and you don’t have this building which is just chock full of hundreds of potential friends.
So, I think that was around 12, 13, 14, I started feeling like I wanted to be around a lot of people, a lot people my age and just make friends. And that totally happened when I went to high school. I think high school is it is a really good option as far as public schooling. I think the other schools maybe like elementary and middle, I wouldn’t have had quite the same experience. But I think high school was a good way for me, a good transition point for me to do formal education. I think it was a really smooth transition too. I was not really expecting this when I went there but because I was kind of just going for the social aspect but the education stuff wasn’t a barrier. It wasn’t the barrier that I thought it would be.
PAM: Yeah, yeah. That’s interesting to know. It’s great for parents to hear that the transition on the academic side wasn’t really a big deal.
And I love your point too around that age that you were interested in some more social engagement with other people in person. I know. At that age too. A couple of my kids were more interested in that, so they got more involved in activities. Things like karate and Girl Guides and stuff like that. So, they would get that social interaction there. And then there is the online aspect as well. It really depends on what kind of engagement you’re looking for, right? So yes, that worked out really well for you.
JACK: Yeah, yeah. And I think it definitely is an individual thing because even just in this household, we both had a lot of online friends growing up and there’s a point where I was like, “No, I think I do want more.”
But then, conversely, for Sean didn’t feel a lack there.
SEAN: Right. Yeah. My choice when I started and it was just the one class at MTC. So, I didn’t go into the same level of stuff that Jack did, obviously. I was pretty much just continuing the same kind of lifestyle.
But definitely my reason for doing it wasn’t at all because I wanted to meet lots of people and Jack did it mostly for friends. I just wanted something to do. I just got bored of being here all the time and I wanted, it was intrinsic, to find self fulfilment. I think I wanted to just do something with my time that I felt like was worth something.
And I didn’t know that was going to be through school. But my mom kept offering different things like, “Do you want to join this thing or take a class or something?”
And I eventually just chose to go for the animation class that she recommended and that was great. It was super cool. It was really, really neat.
JACK: I think one of the most interesting things about both of our decisions to go to the schools was that we were able to pinpoint what was missing and just being at home and just being unschoolers.
JACK: I was able to see and just feel, ‘Well I don’t necessarily feel a need to be learning more formally, but I do I like people and I want friends.’ And then Sean was able to pinpoint that he was not feeling lonely but he was just like, ‘No, I think I want a purpose or something. Yeah, I want some more concrete to say that I’ve done.’
PAM: You know that makes so much sense and I love the way you describe it because it’s like you guys were at a point where you were feeling that you were looking for more.
It was just a little bit of you know I’m feeling kind of ready to grow. And like you mentioned Sean, your mom was offering some ideas, all sorts of ideas of things that you could potentially do. Things for you to mull over and connect with, you know? And then you eventually decide, ‘OK I’m going to go try this. I’ll go try this animation class and see how things go from there because that’s it.’
I’m sure too Jack if you went to high school and it wasn’t the kind of experience and connection that you were looking for, you’re welcome to leave. Right? So, I think that’s the biggest thing with unschooling, you have the time to explore for yourself, to realize that you’re feeling something missing you’re feeling a pull for something more some time to think about it, choose something and try it and see how it goes. See if it meets your needs and if it doesn’t, it’s not like a failure or something gone wrong. You can just tweak it now and try something else and see if that better meets what I’m feeling is missing right now. Does that makes sense?
JACK: Yeah. Yeah. And I think something that is … I kind of lost my train of thought.
SEAN: I could go ahead.
I think with unschooling, in particular, there have been a lot of times now that I’m going to community college and everything where I felt like I don’t have time to think during the semester. There’s just so much stuff going on and I can’t imagine having to go through middle school and high school and everything. I feel like I wouldn’t have time to figure out who I was as a person. And I think unschooling was nice for that. The fact that we were able to think about what we were missing and make our own choice is really, really nice. But just figuring out what we want from life and from our experiences. And that’s really, really helpful.
PAM: That’s awesome.
So now you’re both in college and university. Can you share a little bit for people let them know what you’re studying and how you’re finding the experience right now.
SEAN: I’m going into graphic design. I’ve been going to Blue Ridge Community College for the past couple of years and I just graduated from there with an associate’s degree. I’m going to be transferring to JMU to go into more graphic design stuff there. I’ve been mostly working on gen ed stuff for the past couple of years and so I haven’t done a whole lot of the actual graphic design stuff just yet but overall it’s been, a less intimidating transition than I thought I was going to be.
And part of that, I think, is partially because I had a little bit of class experience at MTC when I took my animation class. But it’s been a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. We didn’t write essays or anything here when we were unschooling and I’ve had to write essays at Blue Ridge but I’ve done just fine with that stuff.
JACK: More than just fine.
SEAN: Yeah. I’ve done very well. And teachers have been really impressed by my essay writing abilities.
Which I don’t think is what I would have expected when I first came to Blue Ridge a couple of years ago. I would not have thought that I was going to be the star student in some of these classes.
But the teachers really like me and I think that is really interesting. Just learning that about myself and learning that I can do this, even though I spent so much of my life not doing school. I’m capable of doing school.
JACK: Yeah that’s cool. I think that it’s been really interesting for both of us during our transitions from unschooling to formal education. We felt not only has unschooling not been a hindrance to us but a boost. I think that there was an idea coming into high school that it would be a barrier that we had to cross. We thought we’d be starting from behind someone who has been in school this whole time.
But not only was it not a barrier but I think it was a boost really because of the motivation because we were so gung ho. Now that we’re in school, this is our choice and let’s do it as much as possible. So, we study and really care about the stuff that we’re doing. So yeah. Both, both of our transitions were really, really smooth. Once we got to school, the stuff was easier than we ever imagined.
SEAN: Yeah. Yeah.
PAM: Yeah. That makes sense because that intrinsic motivation. Because it’s a choice. I think that really boils down to the biggest difference. Because most kids who are there, it’s not a choice. It’s something they have to do. They don’t feel like they have agency over their life there. Whereas with you guys this is something you’re choosing to do. And for all your life when you’ve chosen to do something it’s because you wanted to and you throw yourself at it like you did with the video games. It’s just like, “This is cool. This is interesting. I want to do it.” And you throw yourself at it because it’s a choice.
I think you’re right. And in that other piece too. That’s really interesting because when you don’t go to school, especially with all the messages in society, you can feel like you’re behind. Because the things that you guys are doing aren’t valued the same as school in general. Oh, you’re just playing video games right? Even though that’s not the message you’re getting inside your family that is the conventional message that you’re surrounded with. So, it can be when you don’t know school, it can feel like you’re starting from behind, that what you’ve been doing isn’t really applicable. But what you’ve discovered is that all those years that you spent unschooling and growing up and having time to yourself and making choices and understanding yourself better was super applicable and that you can pick up those little bits, those little other bits of school and the system along the way. That’s really interesting.
SEAN: But it’s surprising. Well it’s not a surprise to us anymore but I think it’s surprising to some people how much you can learn from seemingly not doing anything. When you’re just staying at home, there’s a lot you can learn from hanging out here doing your own thing.
PAM: Yeah. I mean you learn so much about being human. About how to be a person, how to be a person in your world, how to understand yourself, how to make choices, how to see how those choices work out and tweak the next choice. That is all stuff you do inside a game. But it’s entirely applicable to life isn’t it? You see how this this course is.. You see choosing what courses you want to take. Choosing what degrees or whatever that you’re interested in and just throwing yourself into them so that you can get the most out of it so that you now have more information to make your next choice. So, interesting to think about.
I wanted to touch a little bit more on that aspect on how you see unschooling informing your choices. Were there any other aspects of unschooling that you felt really helped as you moved into those more formal kinds of educational experiences?
JACK: Yeah, I feel like this is similar to the motivation thing but when we were in school, I think we were both able to see, we were both able to kind of take a step back from from the classes in see the classes for what they were that they were just ways to learn stuff and see the grades for what they were. See that that the grades don’t necessarily have as much value as we give them.
And I think because we’d had this long experience outside of school, now that we’re in it, we were realize if this guy gets an A, that means you’ve probably learned something but this guy that got a B probably learned just as much. They’re really subjective and I think then you’re able to make that distinction and to give grades value on our own has been really helpful. We’re able to more selectively put our brains to work on different things and not feel like we need to get an “A+” in every single assignment. Then also just good for our mental health and just being able to not feel like there’s pressure from the grade. The pressure is pretty much gone because it’s just as much pressure as we want to put on ourselves to get whatever grades we want to get. Which is huge. I think that made it a lot easier to go to school knowing that. Just seeing the kind of the silliness of grades and how little they really matter.
SEAN: Yeah, the grade does not necessarily correlate to how much you learned in the class. I think coming from unschooling, I think we value the learning over the grades but I think a lot of people are taught to value the grades more than anything. They believe that’s the key to your future. And so, if we get a B in a class it’s not like we didn’t learn this stuff well enough. We may have learned more in a B class than we did in a class we got an A.
But it’s just, it’s a self-value. We look to the content of the class and not necessarily just doing really well. Which is a nice skill to have.
PAM: Yeah. Because you’re not letting someone else all of a sudden, just because you’re going to school, evaluate your experience just because you’re in a class now.
You’re still approaching it with your own intrinsic motivation and maybe what you want to get out of the class doesn’t exactly align with what they’re grading.
Right now, you’ve got your reason for taking the class and the things that you want to get out of the class and keeping those front and centre for yourself rather than turning it over and letting someone else judge what you’re getting out of it. Yeah. That’s a really great point.
JACK: Yeah, I’ve kind of come to see when I go into a class there are two different things that I’m getting out of it. Now I’m in college and I’m trying to get a degree. I want to get a passing grade. Probably at least to B that way my GPA is good, that way I can get the goal of that degree because now intrinsic motivation to get a degree you.
And then there’s this thing, the individual part of this class, I also just want to be myself and learn things. So, I balance those two because often sadly they’re kind of contradictory and doing a lot of stuff to learn and be interested in it, doesn’t help the grade and makes it harder to get a good grade.
But I think I’m learning to balance those and figure out a middle ground where I’m getting good enough grades to satisfy my goal of getting a degree while also being ultimately satisfied and feel good coming out of classes.
Oh, I was going to say one other thing I think is interesting on the topic of how our unschooling has informed our formal schooling and it’s maths. That was the subject we’d do the most talking about in the household when we were unschooling because our mom was a former maths teacher. What we did wasn’t formal stuff, it was really just looking at numbers, looking at money and clocks and time and really simple stuff. But when I went to high school, I found that I was really, really good at maths classes and they came really easily to me. As I’ve looked at what about the maths that has been easy, I think in unschooling I was playing with numbers and not regimented you need to get this answer for this question type of way.
It showed me how numbers work. And then now I’m able to conceptualize numbers in this way that I think a lot of people who were just in school and just showed formulas and the times tables and all these things often I think they struggle. I noticed my peers would struggle if they forgot the formula, they were done. There was no way. I like to come into the numbers and recover and figure out the question.
We were just talking about before this podcast how it was almost more fun when you forget the formula because it meant, “OK, how are we going to figure this out without the easy way. I need to figure out a different way to make these numbers conform and figure out how what they’re going to equal.”
SEAN: Reminds me a little bit of baking using a recipe or someone who just knows how to bake. They just know what the ingredients are going to do. Yeah like maybe throw in an extra ingredient because it’ll help the thing turn out. Or they just bake something off of the top of their head without having to pull out the recipe right. Don’t have the recipe book. Oh yeah. Get it done.
JACK: So yeah. Even then, I guess the big takeaway from this little maths tangent is the one thing that we really didn’t even focus on us as kids, we never really even had to learn the formulas but we just became really good at it in this really natural unschooling way.
I feel like this, the way we see maths, is kind of a good extrapolation of just our whole unschooling experience. We were able to take a step back.
We weren’t having to do things in a regimented way and we now understand it in a really fundamental way. And now the formula and everything else just come really easy because we have this this really core understanding of it.
PAM: Yeah it feels like you were learning while you were unschooling, you were coming across those concepts in the world. So, you were seeing how they lived out there, you were seeing patterns, you were seeing relationship. You were making connections that way. And then it’s later where the notation side comes in. Whereas when you start learning maths in school and that’s the only time you have conversations like parents helping their kids with homework. So, they’re still focused on the notation in the formula and follow this pattern. They’re not having the conversations about seeing it in the world.
And I don’t even I don’t even know that you need to mention it. And you shouldn’t need to mention, this is maths in the world. You know what I mean? But seeing patterns and baking and sewing numbers are naturally all over the place right. So, you can just see them out in the world and then later. Because that’s where it makes sense to you. And that’s what you’re doing so it connects and it sticks with you because there’s a use for it. There’s a reason, where it’s interesting whatever it is, it’s part of your life. So, it’s so much easier to remember that. And then later on to put the more formal stuff on top of it is so much the easier rather than going the other way because when they’re learning the formulas and stuff in school, they don’t really have the time for the conversations or to use it in the real world. There’s such a disconnect I think especially in maths as a subject.
PAM: Any other points that you guys wanted to bring up?
JACK/SEAN: That was all we’ve got. (laughing)
PAM: That was a great example. The maths, and the difference you see with your peers learning maths that way with the formal notations and really just the rules around it. Right. That maths is just rule rather than the beauty of maths in the world. And you know the whole critical thinking aspect of it which I think gets lost. But like you were saying, it’s almost more fun to forget the actual rule, the formula and to just try and critically think your way through it and see how it should works.
JACK: That’s kind of like the intersection between different subjects that you don’t really get. Oftentimes in school, critical thinking is probably more seen as an English thing almost or when you are reading something.
Maybe I don’t know but the interplay is different scales between different subjects is such a thing and there aren’t even subjects when you are unschooling.
SEAN: Life is learning.
JACK: Different subjects, different skills kind of meld together and that’s a good thing.
PAM: So, with your peers now in the classes that you’re taking are there some, challenges? Are there some things you see them finding more challenging? I’m just wondering, knowing that you talked about how unschooling has helped you at various things, are there some things that you see your peers may be finding more challenging because they have been in the system for so many years.
JACK: Yeah. Yeah. I think the first thing comes to mind for me is during my first year at UVA this past year, we had to take these classes that were really, really loosely graded.
That was kind of part of the point of them. They’re supposed to be just a couple grades that semester. Basically, it’s just participation and just talking and communicating with their classmates. And that was really hard because often for them because they didn’t have a lot of motivation outside of the grades, because the grade is always like the carrot on the stick it in front of them, they don’t really have a lot of that intrinsic motivation to be there and learn the things whenever they would be assignment.
If it was not graded or you just get participation grade and you can do much as you want or something. It will always be the bare minimum because they weren’t really seeing the value in doing that. Doing things on their own and doing extra and doing things to learn. So, it does seem like when there aren’t grades involved. People that have been in school all time have a really hard time finding a point.
PAM: Because the grade is the point for them.
JACK/SEAN: Right. Right.
SEAN: Yeah. Going off of that, I’ve taken a lot of classes at Blue Ridge that have been really, really great. I just I think the teacher has been awesome. The stuff that we do is pretty interesting but it doesn’t seem like anyone really has any fun in the classes even when it’s a cool assignment.
No one ever enjoys any of this stuff. I took a communications class this last semester and it was actually a really great class. I loved the teacher. He was awesome. He was just super energetic. And there were only a couple of people in the class that seemed like they really put any effort into their speeches. But the speeches were a really cool chance to share. He let us basically talk about whatever we wanted to, for the final speech we got to talk to the class about a personal value of ours. I thought that’s a really neat experience, to create a speech like that. And I like the teacher and a lot of the classes I do the best in are ones where I connect with the teacher. I feel like I want to make them proud on some level. They’ve put all his effort into coming to class and showing their energy and passion for the subject. And I feel bad if I don’t put effort into these things because I want to strive for them or I’m not valuing what they’re doing for us.
And a lot of people, probably like 60 – 70 percent of the class didn’t put that much effort and it felt like, I don’t know, I think that was a cool assignment as far as a lot of assignments in school go. It’s a shame that people don’t have more fun with that. And take the opportunity to create this neat speech, you’re talking to a whole class about something you care about, that’s about as interesting as it can be.
PAM: That’s really interesting. Those are very similar stories in that it comes back to the grade for them right. I loved your realization or talking about the teacher. And you can tell the teachers that care and who really are interested in their topic. And who are excited to come and share with you and and it is so nice to connect with them on just that level. The joy of the subject. You’ve chosen to take the course they’ve chosen to teach this course. So even just connecting on that interest level. It brings everything up a notch doesn’t it? If they’ve been in school for so many years and they’re just doing it because they have to do it, it’s not the same. If you dig deep enough, it is a choice especially at the college level. But so many kids are there just because they feel it’s another have to on their path.
So, they still don’t feel like it’s a choice. I think that’s one of the reasons why they’re not bringing a lot of their energy and stuff to it. It’s just something to get through.
JACK: And I think a lot of people I see at UVA, well some of them probably it doesn’t feel like a choice at all. Maybe because of their parents or something.
But even the ones that feel like it’s a choice. Their choice is to get a degree. And not necessarily to learn anything.
And the easiest way to get a degree is to get A’s and then leave before you sit there too long. Get out of there as fast as possible.
And yeah so it’s even the choice that they’re making. I think they’re not really. And that’s probably just because they never really learned how to a value learning in its pure state. So, all they could even see in college is, “Well you go and you get a degree.” It’s like a money transaction. It’s like you’re buying a degree. Basically, you go there for four years, you give them money and they give you a degree and then you get a job out of it. Yeah. And then they don’t see those two parts, the grade and then the learning. It’s just all they can see is the grade.
PAM: Yeah that that’s true. I love that point. That they’re not valuing the learning itself. It’s not there. They’re thinking of the minimal learning they have to do to get that grade to get that degree and then thank goodness I don’t have to keep learning anymore. I’m done. (laughing)
I would love to know what piece of advice each of you like to share with unschooling parents who are just starting out on this journey. What would you say to them?
JACK: The first thing that comes to mind is trust your kids. Trust that they will find something.
I mean it only took me till I was14 to really like find, to really start picking up speed and start finding things that I liked.
But like Sean it took longer and but he’s on a path now. Yeah.
SEAN: Yeah, I mean I was 16 when I took the one class.
JACK: So, really do trust that they will find something.
And then also, see what they’re doing and try to find the value in what they are already doing. Because they might have already found it. And you just don’t think so, you may not be seeing that it’s valuable. This goes back to the video games. Even at the age of, we were kids maybe eight or twelve or something and we were playing video games, we were already starting to find it. I was getting in these online games and talking to my team-mates, “Let’s rally guys!” Working with these total strangers to complete this goal. And that was me finding it.
That was me like slowly realizing I want to work with people I want to help people work well.
And then similarly with Sean, he was always more interested in the cool games with the beautiful art and really the more interesting stories. So, when we were like really young, we were already starting to find it.
So, if you can, as parents, really pay attention to what gets them excited. Chances are even when they’re kids, that’s some indication of who they’re going to become.
SEAN: Yeah. There’s already something there. Even when you are just playing video games. You’re just doing whatever sitting around. It looks like to a lot of parents you’re doing absolutely nothing significant. And they’re thinking, “Oh no! My kid is failing.They’re not interested. They don’t want to go to school.” It’s good. There’s something there.
Everyone has interests. I think we’re just drawn to find them regardless of what we’re doing whether or not we’re in school.
PAM: Is there anything else you would like to add to that Sean?
SEAN: Well something else that we were talking about before is don’t give up on it. I think unschooling is the type of thing that works really well if you’re able to go through the whole process where you start unschooling, you let your kid do their stuff, figure it out for themselves and then go and have the motivation to do something themselves.
If partway through that you tell your kid or someone gets worried that their kid isn’t or it’s not working or whatever and they send their kid off to school. I think you lose a big part of the benefit of it which is that the self-motivation. The fact that you’re choosing to do something, the kid loses that because now they’re being forced to go to school.
And now almost it maybe makes it worse. And I mean we didn’t have this happen, so I’m just sort of spit balling, I’m just guessing on what it might be like.
But it feels like now you’ve had this breath of fresh air where you can do what you want and then suddenly you’re in school where everything is structured and you have to do certain stuff and it’s not your choice.
It’s gonna feel really bad to have all of that relaxing personal stuff taken away from you.
PAM: Yeah it feels like that would be so hard. That would feel like that time was judged and that you failed at it somehow because now your parents have decided to take that choice away from you when it’s not, like you said, not on your timeline. So, it can be a double whammy.
JACK: And then also if you’re not, if you don’t have that motivation both the transition to the former education can be hard.
I mean like taking tests, it easy for us because we were like, “Oh, yeah let’s do it.” But if all of a sudden, you’re in eighth grade or something and you didn’t want to be, it could probably feel really overwhelming to all of a sudden have all these tests and stuff. If you weren’t expecting and ready to take on the challenge.
Yeah definitely. Stick it out if you if at all possible, stick it out. Give your kids as much time as they need, because they’ll find something.
PAM: I think you’re right. That trust piece, that trust is a huge, huge piece of it. It’s one of the biggest pieces of it.
It’s not only trust that what your child’s choosing to do is somehow satisfying something for them, some interests even if you don’t know what it is right now, but trust in the timeline. Because it takes what it takes for different people right and it’s not wrong no matter how long or how short that it takes for the them, it’s been very different for my kids. It’s different for you guys. We all have our own journey to take in and that’s the journey that’s going to work best for us because again it’s our choice, when we’re ready to make those choices. That’s when it’s time to make them. Not artificially before. That’s awesome. Thank you so much guys for speaking with me today I really appreciate. I’m so glad you came on and shared your insights because it was fascinating.
Thank you very much.
JACK: It’s been fun.
PAM: I’m glad you guys had fun. I really enjoyed speaking with you and I hope you guys have a great day.
JACK/SEAN: Bye thanks. Bye bye.