PAM: Welcome, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I’m here with Anna Brown. Hi Anna.
PAM: This month in the Living Joyfully Network, we’re exploring the topic Kids are Capable. It’s a foundational unschooling principle. And really when you start to dive in it’s about so much more than meets the eye.
So, I’m really excited to dive into this with you, Anna. We’ve definitely been having a lot of fun with it this month. So, to start us off, choice is a really great lens with which we can start looking at, just the idea that kids are capable. So, what I mean by choice is paying attention to the choices that our children are making helps us become more aware of who they are. The things they like and dislike and their strengths and their challenges and their personality style, their learning style. There are so many different aspects to it. And then from there, once we’re looking and seeing the choices that they’re making, we better see the many ways that they are capable of doing, don’t we?
ANNA: Yes, I really feel that stepping back and watching those choices is so key as opposed to stepping in with ideas and directions, which can be a really natural place. “Let’s go do this,” or, “Oh, let’s look at this.” Because it’s fun, we want to engage and do, but I think if we can just take that little pause, not stepping away, just stepping back and then watching the choices that they’re making.
Because when we do the stepping in with the ideas and the direction, it really makes it about us and what we think is best and what interests us. But if we take that time to watch how they’re making the choices, what they’re choosing, all the wonderful pieces that really draw their attention and pull them in, then we’re getting all these insights into who they are. And ultimately that informs your relationship with the person and so that’s just really helpful.
Again, foundation building is what we’re talking about and it’s a part of building this trust that we’re talking about and that way, when you’re building that strong foundation, you have this place of security and safety, confidence and connection that you can then move forward from. But part of that is listening, trusting in their choices, looking at them, stepping back and watching. What are they choosing? How are they seeing the world? How are they taking in this information around them? All of those insights are so valuable to the relationship.
PAM: Yeah. And I think that to me is a really important paradigm shift because it’s something we can’t realize until we take that pause. Until we take that pause and that our choices can be different from our children’s choices and if we’re not jumping in with the next step or tweak that excites us and bubbling up their energy. “Oh yes. Look, we can do this and we can do this.” And, “Oh, look at this over here.” And you know, all those pieces. When we give it that pause for a moment and give the space for them to make the next choice, that is when we get to learn so much more about them. And like you were talking about that trust, but also just knowing what excites them and seeing them making that next choice often shows us how capable they are of making that next choice or of doing the thing as long as you give them that space to do it. It’s just so different. You find they’re capable of so much more than you expected when you give them the time to do it.
ANNA: When you give them that space and hold that space for it, it’s amazing. And if you’re that person that just gets super excited and wants to share and do, share your insights, but then with a follow-up like, “Ooh, what do you see?” Or, “What looks interesting to you? I’m really interested in this bug over here. What do you see? What’s interesting to you?” Then it becomes this exchange of ideas, then they know, ‘I don’t need to just follow what you’re saying. I can have my own view of this situation.’ And so if you’re having trouble with that stepping back, maybe, at least as a first step, open up the conversation. And then if you can step back later and watch, you’ll see that capability in their choices and how much insight you get.
PAM: That’s a great piece because that is another aspect of building trust in the relationship. It’s another aspect of stepping back from the power dynamic where, what you say is more important than what they think. So, by adding that piece, I love that. That’s a great, well not even transition piece, I mean, it’s helpful for that, but it may be the way you guys engage moving forward is just always talking about what the other person thinks too.
Just discovering that piece, sharing and asking, sharing, and asking. That is so much more, helpful for your relationship moving forward. And it’s just so much more fun. Isn’t it?
ANNA: It is.
PAM: Now, one of the challenges that I’ve seen coming across, one I remember coming across myself, is that when you’re giving that space for them to do things and when you’re starting to watch, for the things that they’re capable of, what can creep in is that more conventional, aspect or, need for independence. Especially for younger kids, we want them to be able to feed themselves, tie their own shoes, look up their own things, you know, get dressed in the morning.
We can start to get really focused on ‘Well, if I’m looking for my kids being capable, I want to step back and I want to see them doing all the things. Especially at this age, they should be able to do this and this and that.’ I know that you’ve talked about that as the “independence agenda” and I love that phrase. It can really be a trap for us that we need to watch out for it. I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about that.
ANNA: Yeah. So, it was really helpful for me to pull it out as a concept because, in the US certainly, but I think really in many countries as well, we have this independence agenda and it starts from birth.
This idea that babies should sleep in their rooms by themselves at night alone, that they should feed themselves by X age, just like you were saying, tie their shoes here. It’s this idea that values independence over relationships. I think when I identified this cultural piece years ago, I realized why it was butting heads with my unschooling piece, which values relationship.
I want to encourage connections, relationships, community—life is so much easier when we’re working together and helping one another. And just like we were talking about sharing our ideas and what sparks for each other, because then that gives me something new to think about and them something new to think about.
But when you have had an independence agenda as a culture, it also plays into this other idea, that blame/fault matrix that I’ve talked about before, because basically we stop empathizing with those of us that need help in a moment. And we go to this blaming and shaming place when someone needs help because we’ve been taught that independence is what we’re supposed to be valuing.
And basically, there is no scenario where that is making better relationships, not a better family, not a better community. I mean, it just isn’t. So instead, if we can hold people up when they need it and delight in working together and helping each other, that fosters that sense of connection. That again, lays part of this foundation that we’re talking about, because honestly, we cannot do it completely alone and expecting kids to do it completely alone doesn’t make sense.
I feel like it can be damaging and I think it’s something that they unpack for decades to come. And it turns up in ways like not being able to ask for help when you need it. Because you feel ashamed by that. It comes in ways of pushing through messages that something doesn’t feel right. But instead of asking for feedback or ideas, I’m just going to push forward even past your own messages. And so, then you’re carrying this shame and blame. And so, this is something we can stop right now. We can create a different narrative for our children and for our families.
And fostering that connection and interdependence creates an environment where we can all thrive and in my opinion just leads to our best life because I’ve just seen how valuable, how much I enjoy being that for someone else and how it feels wonderful when someone else can be that for me.
And so, I just personally, really wish we could move away it because I think all this stuff that’s going on, culturally, politically, etc. So much of that is this independence agenda, that idea that you have to do it yourself and it’s like, no, you don’t. We can all do it together and get there a lot faster and easier.
PAM: And oh my gosh, that is where we also learned so much about ourselves, about each other, about the thing, about the world, truly, because it’s not, like you were saying that blame/fault matrix, it’s not like one end of the spectrum or another. It’s not, either you can do this or you can’t do this and I have to do it for you. There is just so much in that spectrum between those two ends. Like you were talking about that interdependence that, maybe I can use some help with this aspect of it. And we work together and support each other. As an adult, there are things that we don’t like to do so much and our partner or spouse, or a good friend, they help us do in those things. I don’t like to make a lot of phone calls. Can you phone these guys? And this is what we’re trying to do. Can you take care of that for me? And I’ll go do this thing. It’s okay for adults, right? I mean, there’s still shame in there, but I think in our close relationships, we work that out and we understand that.
And so we can expand that to include other human beings, to see that happening in other adults friends’ lives and offer up help in those areas and exactly the same for our kids. It just shines when you are figuring things out together. And the beautiful thing is how it can change from one week to the next.
You start to learn that I feel capable of doing this today and next week I want a little bit of help with it. And that’s where you learn so much about the other person too, because in the back of my mind, ‘What’s the difference?’ Maybe they’re tired from what you did yesterday, or maybe they’re hungry. We could embrace that along the way as well, you can bring in so many different aspects. So, it’s not an actual conclusion, they can do this or they can’t do this, it is so much about being in the moment. And then everything blossoms from there. The context really is everything when we’re doing something in the moment, isn’t it?
ANNA: Yeah. That’s definitely it, it is just living in that moment, being there together and just knowing and like you said, as adults, we do it all the time and yes, sometimes we do carry that shame and pieces. And what if that could be different?
What if we didn’t have that weight? And that’s the gift that we can give by creating a family where we just lift each other up and that that’s the model instead.
PAM: Another aspect that I want to touch on that I love, cause we’ve been talking about, doing and talking about our kids being able to do this, not being able to do this, but we can peel back another layer of kids are capable of can’t we, because when you’re in that moment, when we were talking about, knowing in that moment, whether or not they’re capable or whether they would like the gift of somebody helping them to do something in that piece, there is so much self-awareness, right?
Being capable of understanding where you are in that moment. And if you want to take extra time to do it yourself, if you would like a little bit of help, that is, I don’t want to say more important, but just as important. Being capable of understanding yourself and your own needs. That is just another whole piece. Maybe you need help doing something for a long, long time. And that’s totally okay. Because just knowing that our kids are aware of that. It’s so beautiful to see them figuring that out and really, that’s where they’re making a choice.
It’s not like, ‘Oh, mom expects that I can tie my shoes. So, now I need to do that.’ I mean, imagine your headspace too. My mom expects. Oh, you can tell your shoes. You do it yourself. It’s like, ‘Oh, I better not show that I’m capable of doing some things because then forever I will need to do it.’ There’s just so much wrapped up in that awareness piece, isn’t there?
And I mean, that just reminded me of something that, I think it’s helpful to remember that sometimes kids ask for help because they want connection. So, it may be something that they’re perfectly capable of and have been doing for weeks and months. But they’re asking. And instead of meeting that with frustration, we can really recognize it is that call for connection.
And that idea of helping people when they ask is really something I want to foster. I don’t want to be in judgment of that. If someone comes to me and asks me something, I want to trust that they’re asking for a good reason and I may not even understand that reason. And so, let’s give that same grace to our kids when they ask for help, even though it’s something we know they know how to do. What a loving beautiful gift it is to just help another human being. And so again, I think somehow we get messages tied up about children that we have to be making them independent and they have to be doing this or they’re never going to do it themselves.
And it’s not how we would treat a neighbor that asks us to do something that they’re perfectly capable of doing. We trust that they’re asking for a reason. Let’s trust our own children, who we love the most. So that piece came to mind. But also, this piece that you were talking about, which is we’re not talking about the things so much, there’s a piece of that, the doing of the thing, but what we’re really talking about is that children know their mind.
They know who they are, what they want, how they want to move through the world. Honestly from birth. I mean, infants make it pretty darn clear when they want to eat, when they want to sleep. And when they want to snuggle. From birth, they’re telling us these things, they’re communicating with us, their needs that are coming from inside of them, toddlers know darn well, where they want to explore and what they’re interested in and how they want to feel. That they want to put their hands in the mud and feel things and explore. And they know that from inside of them, we just want to create an environment where we’re building upon that inner knowing. We don’t want to be the environment that’s pushing that down or pushing a particular agenda about what we think they should be wanting to do or should be able to do.
And I think we see when we’re honoring that we’re observing, like we said above, you’ll be blown away by all that’s going on in there. All these amazing insights they have. But I think when we have a situation where the parents, or at school, if it’s a teacher are kind of pushing an agenda of what’s being done, they’re still having those thoughts, but they’re thinking ‘I can’t express that because that’s not what I’m supposed to be doing. That’s not what’s being valued in this environment.’ And so, creating that environment where they can really explore and tell us what they’re interested in and tell us what ideas are coming up.
I mean, you know, Pam, my gosh, we’ve heard the most amazing conversations from children and on the network, for sure. Just that have bubbled up organically from these kids, sharing things with their families and their siblings and the things they’ve done and thought about. And just seeing that in action is just, it’s so powerful.
I’ve just seen how capable these kids are and how much they have to offer the world, right now.
PAM: I know I have goosebumps when you’re talking about that, because that is where, just the magic of everything happens, in that space. That is where we can connect with them and help them feel heard and seen for who they are versus the expectations that we can put on them.
It’s amazing how just a one-off sentence, like “You should be able to do this” or, “You did this last week so do it again,” how damaging, or dampening, as in, it’s making them feel bad about themselves.
They feel shame that they can’t do it, or they just feel disappointment in themselves, guilt that they don’t feel like doing it right now. Instead of digging into like, like you said, they know, they know what they think about the moment, the situation so often, at such young ages, they can explain why, if we take that moment.
If we give that space to have that conversation about, why are you feeling like you’d like my help? And so often that comes up later too. Like it weaves into all our conversations as we get to know them better. The trust that develops in that space, when they trust that when they ask for help, we’re going to be there to help them.
When they trust that they can share what they’re thinking or feeling, and they’re not going to be shamed or put off. They’re going to be seen, really seen and heard for who they are. I mean, it’s amazing. The relationships that can develop and the trust that develops and how that spirals.
And how it can so quickly spiral, because can you imagine just the weight, even for yourself as a human being. When you’re having a hard moment and somebody says, “I see you, I get it. I know why it’s hard. Is there anything I can do to help?” Phew. All of a sudden, you’re not carrying that alone, and that expectations that we hold put that pressure on them just as they do on other adults. Kids really are so capable in the moment of knowingness.
ANNA: I’m going to share this story that I think is related and you’ll just have to bear with me. So, it just happened the other day. For me, I’m not a kid, but I was hungry, which we know is a trigger for me and I was in the kitchen and my husband and daughter were in the kitchen and we were trying to get lunch. And I was feeling very out of sorts. I could just feel it, I was just so out of sorts, there was just so much going on and, and they could see it and sense it. Because again, we have this environment where we give everybody space and we know, and we observe and they could hear me. And I even said at one point, he asked me a question and I’m like, “I can’t answer that right now. It’s too much.” And then he went and closed the door to the laundry room.
The laundry was going, which I hadn’t even been aware of, but as soon as he closed, it was like, phew, and it was just that little awareness that we can have of each other of like, he knew it was too much stimulation. I was hungry. There were people in the room, then there was this loud noise.
That’s the beautiful dance that we’re talking about, of learning and understanding because over the years, he and I have talked about that. That’s something we talk about, that lights bother him and sounds are hard for me when there’s a lot of extra sounds and I’m trying to focus on something and we’ve done the same things with our girls, understanding what their pieces are.
And so I don’t know, that this beautiful dance in relationship, like you said, I just felt really grounded. All of a sudden, I was like, okay. And I took my food and I was able to eat and then I was totally fine. And that could have gone a lot of different ways. And had it been a child … I have a pretty large amount of awareness at this point but had it been a child who’s still working through this, a meltdown could have happened.
And it’s really, again, just when we give the space for that extra awareness of where they can give words to that, or we can, you know, that, I don’t know, anyway, it may be unrelated, but I feel like it’s all part of it. Just that space that we’re trying to create.
PAM: Exactly. So, let’s pretend it is a child in that space. Imagine what they’re learning, if we can work with them. If we can notice, before a meltdown happens. When we’re open and just kind of paying attention, doing that dance as we talked about, we can see that something’s starting to weigh on them, something’s off for them and we can do things. So, if they’re into conversation, we can ask and see if they have an idea what’s going on.
We can try things like closing the door, noticing extra noise, noticing extra lights, noticing not really liking the food, noticing they really like a favorite tee shirt or just whatever in the moment, understanding them and helping them figure out those pieces together. Because we don’t know the answers. And it may be a different answer every time, because context is everything, right?
ANNA: Yeah. It’s information and we’re learning it and it even gave me another awareness of that’s something I could have recognized when I came in the room and now I can build on that, more information and so then the child’s learning more about themselves. You’re learning more about the child. Again, it’s just enhancing that relationship and that connection.
PAM: That is where the trust grows, because they can trust in that moment that you’re helping them figure it out. You’re not coming in with an answer. You’re not telling them, “Oh, You look upset. That’s probably because of X and we’ll fix that. There, you’re feeling better now.” It’s that shift away from ‘I know what’s best for you,’ to ‘together, let me help you figure out what you think is best for you in this moment.’
It may be a subtle shift, but instead of thinking of ourselves as coming in above, as in being knowledgeable, instead, coming from below and bouying them and supporting them and helping them as they try to figure out what’s going on in the moment.
What they’re capable of is figuring that out. Like you were saying, even from the youngest age, they’re figuring out how to communicate their needs. They’re figuring out ways to do it. So, they really are capable that moment of understanding what’s going on for them, whether or not they’re verbalizing it. Maybe we just try to do a few things and see what happens. That’s the really important thing, I think. Is it being on their time table. Figuring it out in the spaces that they are ready for because if somebody comes at you, I’m trying to tell you how to do something or that you should do something in that moment.
You’re back to that agenda. Somebody else’s agenda on top of you just makes everything so much harder and it takes away your agency of figuring out that moment. And it takes away that trust. ‘Oh, they don’t trust that I can figure this out because they want me to do it faster or they want me to do it a different way.’
ANNA: Right. And then that’s conflicting with your own messages. But I’m trying to do this, but I’m not doing it the right way. As opposed to figuring these pieces out. And I think that is the dance, you know? Because I think children are looking at us, ‘Do they trust me to do this? Do they think I’m capable?’
And so, I like to talk about, I want what’s reflected in me is their capability. I want them to know that I’m trusting and that I know they have this inner voice and that we’re going to figure it out, that I’m there to support and lift up that inner voice that’s already inside of them.
And what I’ve seen is that children, adults, people beam under that, it’s a shining bright light light of ‘Okay, they see me, they hear me, they’re trusting my capabilities and yeah, I may be stumbling along and trying to figure this out but that’s ok.’ When we give somebody space even to stumble along, but standing there with them and helping them out, that is the growth area. That’s where we really take something in. That’s where we really learn about ourselves. That’s where we really grow to that next level by doing it ourselves, stumbling and doing it ourselves. And again, that doesn’t mean pitching them out in the wild. I’m right there with them, whether it’s my husband or you or whatever, but I’m just supporting your journey. I think, maybe that is a big paradigm shift for people because they weren’t given that as a child.
And so how do I do that? I think you’ll see it’s pretty natural. It’s pretty exciting because again, you see that beam of self-confidence, that beam of self-awareness and that, ‘I’m going to struggle through this, but then I’m getting it and then sharing that excitement about getting it.’
And so, I don’t know, all of that is just that beautiful dance that you talk so much about.
PAM: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and I love that you spoke of how they see themselves reflected through our eyes. So, if we truly trust them to make choices and to follow their joy and to do their things. What you see is that their trust in themselves grows.
It’s like, ‘Oh, and they trust me. I’m doing these things. Stumbling is okay.’ That’s our judgment. For them, it’s just, “That didn’t work.” They keep going. I learned that from my kids, mistakes aren’t horrible things. They’re not mistakes. They’re just times that didn’t turn out as expected.
And then you can just see that trust in themselves growing, like you said, they just start to beam. They feel empowered. They feel capable. Not, not so much capable of doing, but capable of trying. I’m going to do the thing and see what, and then knowing that they can tweak things like that capability knowing that they can figure things out.
ANNA: Yes, because I think when we jumped in trying to fix it or figure it out for them, and often times that is a very contentious area for kids and parents, because the parent thinks, ‘I’m trying to fix it. I’m trying to help you.’ And you are but you’re coming in with your ideas of how to fix it, even though you’re listening to them and you’re trying, but it’s not lifting them up to fix it.
And it’s okay if they sit in a moment of disappointment, this is not what I thought it was. You can still be there with them, but help them through. And it may be that sometimes you are thinking of, what about this? or what about that? But watch that because I think, that can dampen down their thoughts, when coming in with all of our ideas of how to fix it, it can really, I think, become frustrating to the child.
Who’s like, ‘No, you’re not understanding what’s in my head that I’m trying to figure out here.’ So just giving some space for that, for them to figure out what’s in their head and get it out, you know?
PAM: Right. Because even if we go on and solve it for them, because they’re upset, you know, something went wrong went unexpectedly and we see how we can fix it and make them happy again.
And we just want them to be happy. And then we jump in and do that. Yes, they can be happy that it’s done, but they feel less capable in that moment. They are like, ‘Oh, I couldn’t figure that out. I needed someone else to figure that out for me.’ And in the longer term, that’s not what we’re going for.
ANNA: No, it’s a lot of onus on the parent, that is actually hard to live up to because you really don’t have the answers for everyone. And you’ll hear when people are switching to this kind of lifestyle and paradigm, they’re just like, “I don’t have all the answers.” It’s too stressful to try to figure everything out and keep all the balls going. You don’t need to keep all the balls going. You’re all keeping the balls going.
And there’s going to be upset on everybody’s part at different points as we’re working through things, but that’s okay because we’re holding space for that. And we’re providing an environment where they can explore and make mistakes and come back and there’s no judgment around that. And there’s no time table.
I think that was really critical that maybe we brushed over when you just said a minute ago, on their timetable. So, I think you’re right. We tend to rush into fix, because we want to get us back to, happy and everything’s humming along.
But sometimes their timetable is noodling that a little bit and figuring out what that is and sitting in a little bit of discomfort. ‘I don’t like this, but I like that.’ And trusting that process is okay too, because then what that gives them is that tool, “When I feel upset or when something’s not going my way, or I’ve hit a stumbling block, I don’t need to melt down about it. It’s not the end of the world.” I’m not judging the meltdowns, but it’s not the end of the world because it’s okay that I made a mistake and I can re-correct my course. And I think you’re right, children very naturally do that.
But I think through our society, we tell them that that’s not okay. That’s really what you and I both have talked about where in school it really wasn’t okay to make mistakes or not have the right answer. But what that served to do is quiet me. I wasn’t going to take the chance or do whatever until I was so sure I had the right answer and wow a lot of exploration is lost, a lot of learning is lost by doing that. And so again, this is about fostering that environment, building that foundation.
PAM: I mean right in there, that school story just triggered for me, that is where it was all about memorizing the right answer.
PAM: There really wasn’t the understanding of what was going on. The context wasn’t there because I couldn’t ask the questions to figure out exactly what all the little bits and pieces were. Because I would be put off. People would think I was stupid for not knowing all those thoughts. That’s what I’m imagining right at the moment, whether it’s true or not. But that is what that framework gives us. It hands us, ‘we need to sit quietly and get the right answer.’ Because we don’t want people to figure out what’s actually going on.
ANNA: Right. So, we one hone that skill of memorizing, but we still don’t understand it. And then it’s gone.
PAM: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, I love that timetable piece. And for me, what was big there for me was developing my sense, my patience. To be patient and curious about where they might take it.
And then the other big leap… We can get to every aha unschooling moment from any topic!
ANNA: It is our gift, Pam. (laughing)
PAM: Because this is also where I realized how valuable those moments were when things went sideways. It wasn’t always about, ‘We’ve got to get to the next good moment. We got to figure out these problems and get through them, and then we’re all going to be happy and we’re all going to be sitting around just having fun together.’
We really de-value those moments and we don’t really sit with that discomfort and let things unfold because in those moments is where they figure out the context, where we figure out the context, all the other pieces that are in there, and really figuring out where it went sideways for us.
Because in understanding that, that’s the learning, any depth of understanding that we can bring forward to the next moment or else we just keep replaying it. You know, that old saw that, until I learn the thing, the universe is just going to keep giving me opportunities, but that’s because you haven’t learned the thing yet!
So, it’s just going to keep hitting you in the face until you sit with it for a while and figure out what is the root, where is it? Kids naturally do this now. They’re not going to always be able to verbalize it. When they’re learning to walk, they’re doing it over and over and over again. They’re not saying well, I’m going to keep practicing.
This is a natural human instinct and that’s what we mean when we talk about doing it on their timetable. Giving them the space because there’s just so much going on in their subconscious and figuring this out that we don’t know about. That they can’t verbalize like we’ve been doing this whole conversation, put it back on ourselves.
How many times do we get hit in the head with things over and over again until we take the time to, huh? This is a pattern. I’m going to need to sit with this for a while and really figure out where that root is so that I’m not recreating this for myself over and over again. And we are so capable of this as human beings, when we give ourselves the space and the grace to process through it.
ANNA: Yeah, that’s it. That’s really it. And it’s this big concept, but it really boils down to these moments, these simple moments where we’re building trust and our relationships.
PAM: That’s beautiful. So yeah, those two lenses.
First, of choice and what our kids are choosing to do in the moment and understanding that helps us see so many things that they’re capable of doing.
And then when we look through that lens of trust, we come to understand how important that self-awareness piece is and how capable our kids are of understanding themselves in each moment. And even if they’re not so much into talking about it or even able to verbalize it, we can see by giving that space and paying attention, we’ll see by their next choice and their next choice where they came from and we can see that self-awareness on display. At play right there in front of us.
ANNA: Right. So, the cool thing about this particular piece is these steps just build on each other. As you watch them make the choices, you see they’re capable and that ups your trust, then they see that and they trust in that.
But it’s that simple choice. That simple choice to just look at that and observe, and to say, I’m going to do this. I’m going to see who they are. I’m going to see them and trust them and trust in their abilities and see where it leads and just really cool, amazing things happen. And we just, we see it all the time with people sharing things in the network, and I just love it.
PAM: I know, I know it really is our first step to take, I’m going to play with this. I’m going to trust that so many people before me have seen it. It’s one of those things where amazing things unfold that you could never have expected things that are so much better for the people involved than what we expected at first, what was in the direction that we could have pushed, which I’m sure would have been great, we have good ideas and everything. Where they take it is so much more tailored to who they are. It’s just incredible. And it’s quite the adventure!
ANNA: I love it.
PAM: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today.
ANNA: I love doing these. Take care.
PAM: Have a great day.