EU290: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 1
EU331: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 2
PAM: Let’s dive into that “Am I doing enough as an unschooler?” question.
And this a question that I feel, at least for me, it comes up over the years. It’s not a one-and-done thing where it comes up for me and I process it and I get the answer and then it doesn’t come up again. Or it comes up two years from now and it’s like, oh, that was the answer. Remember that? And then it goes away. No. It is a really good question, because, again, it means that we are still pondering things, that we still want to be engaged in our lives as unschooling parents, in our family’s lives. So, to ask ourselves if we’re doing enough, it’s a great check-in point for us. But did you wanna share anything about that before we keep going?
JAE: So, yeah. Ah, man, it’s so much. I feel like we’ve talked about it so much, but it’s literally a lot. So, for example, my daughter, she loves TV. But another thing that she really loves is counting. Sounds weird, right? She loves to count. One time, we were in the car and I guess we were riding for a while. She was like, “Daddy, I counted to 250.” I was like, “Oh, okay, cool, Mike Mike.” And then a little bit later, she was like, “Daddy, I counted to 500.” I was like, “Oh, wow. Okay. So, you keeping this thing going.” And then, she was like, “Daddy, I counted to 750.” In the same car ride, like the same time. And she was like, “What’s the highest you ever counted to?” I was like, “I don’t know, maybe 800, 900, when I was a kid or something.” And she was like, “Okay.” She was quiet. And then she was like, “Daddy, I counted to a thousand.” I was like, “Yeah, I’ve never counted to a thousand, not in one sitting.”
She just loves counting. So, now she’s shown me that interest. I’m not a math person. I’m not a counting person. And the only way I know to fulfill that is with either games that involve counting or worksheets, seriously. And I was introducing her to this idea of little things, like we’ll buy yogurts in packs of four and there’s four packs of four. And I was like, “Oh, Mikey, that’s 16.” And she was like, “How did you do that so fast without counting each one?” And I was like, “That’s multiplication.” And she would say, “Oh, what’s multiplication?” So, she’ll like be interested in that just in that moment. And I want her to continue to do that, because maybe she could do my taxes one day, you know what I mean?
But am I doing enough helping her with that? I don’t want to just give her worksheets. Because I know that’s what everybody says. “Oh, they’re interested. Give her some worksheets and stuff. Give her a first grade or a second-grade math book.” I don’t wanna do that, but I don’t really know. And I know there’s math everywhere, but I don’t know what else to do to continue to grow that fire in her that she has of numbers. I just watched a movie the other day. It’s an older movie with Russell Crowe, A Beautiful Mind. Maybe she’ll be this math genius and it’s like, “Yeah, I remember when she counted to a thousand in the car when she was six.” So, it’s just trying to figure out, am I doing enough? Am I stoking the fire enough and sparking her interest enough with the things that she’s showing me she’s interested in?
PAM: Yeah. Very different context for this question can be applied in all sorts of ways. I love this one. So, many things bubbled up for me. So, for me, when it’s about a child and an interest they have, one thing that was always very helpful for me was to look to the child. Your counting story just took me right back, too. And it was our first year of unschooling, so like 20 years ago, we took a vacation and on vacation, my youngest, Michael, just got into counting. So, I would have paper in my purse or something and write whatever number he got to. And he would like to do it out loud. And so, when we were outside of the place, just sitting out, we were in the mountains in BC and we’d go out for a hike. He’s like, “What number was I at?” And I’d tell him what number. And then he would just pick up from there and count and count and count. So, that was a very fun memory. Thank you for sparking that.
But the urge for worksheets and your resistance, I don’t know if you’ve come across A Mathematician’s Lament? I’ll put a link in the show notes. It is a great piece. It, too, is 20, 25 years old, but it talks about the curriculum, the worksheets in math, and the challenges. He is a mathematician, obviously, A Mathematician’s Lament. His uncomfortableness with the way math was being taught in school, is being taught in school. So, that would be a fascinating piece for you to open up your mind a bit more and to help you understand why you’re feeling a little bit of resistance to just plop down a worksheet as a solution to your child’s joy and interest in this. Because that could be one way to turn it off.
Another piece that came up for me, this is where community shines, to be able to go and chat to other unschoolers who won’t just say, “Give her a worksheet,” like you were saying. If I go say, “Oh, she’s loving counting!” “Oh, well, get her math textbook. Get her worksheets. Dive into that, because maybe she’s gonna do my taxes someday.” Those are absolutely thoughts that are gonna bubble up around it.
But we did just have a question a month ago or so in the Network, so we were sharing books. There’s a book called Googol, I think, that’s all about numbers and the history of numbers and how big they can go.
JAE: Googol is the biggest number.
PAM: Googol as the number, not the company.
JAE: I was like, what? Is she telling me to Google it? I get it. I get it.
PAM: Yeah. So, there are so many ways beyond the worksheet to bring the world of math and specifically right now she seems to be interested in the numbers themselves. So, just finding different ways, opening up our lens to the different ways that we can support and engage. And maybe that’s as much as she’s interested in, you may find. That’s why I said, looking to our kids to see, if I bring in a few other things related, are they interesting? Did they catch her attention or not?
Was this a spurt of counting and now she feels really comfortable with numbers and the pattern of numbers as you go through the tens and the hundreds and up into a thousand? Seeing how consistent that pattern is, I’m sure going through it and counting in her head, the patterns were just shining for her. And maybe that was satisfying enough, no timeline to it.
So, that’s why we can bring things. Am I doing enough? Try things. There’s nothing wrong with bringing in some books or finding a few worksheets that you think might be fun. The challenge is the expectation, that we think because they like this, they should want more of this, or us being disappointed if the worksheet wasn’t fun or the stories that we’re reading, “No, I don’t wanna read that story. Let’s read something else or let’s watch something else.” Maybe there’s some TV shows around counting in numbers. I think there might be, too.
JAE: There might be. I actually don’t know of any. If you guys know of any, I’d appreciate it.
PAM: I’m remembering from when my kids were younger, like on PBS and stuff, I think there were a few math shows, but games, like video games and stuff where there’s puzzles and counting. I’m thinking about Zoombinis. That was one my kids loved, but it was rereleased in the last few years. And I picked up a copy of it. But bringing those things in without expectation just helps us learn more about their interest. Do they find that book interesting? Maybe they’ll dive more and that helps us understand a bit better what direction their mind is at, which way they’re going with it, what they’re getting out of it. Maybe the computer game. Yes or no, like it, or don’t like it, all these things, their reactions, and how they engage with it are just clues to us that help us support them more. Help us better understand what they’re getting, what they’re interest actually is.
I think that the hardest part of the, “Am I doing enough as an unschooler?” when it’s related to supporting our kids’ interests, the challenge is if we bring expectations. Like, oh, I’m finding all these different things and you’re not doing them. Or, I brought these books from the library, let’s read this book first, before we read that other book. You’re like, let’s watch this show about numbers before we watch your favorite show.
When we start bringing our power, when we start trying to direct it, that’s where the, “Am I doing enough?” that can be a little clue to us that we’re stepping over. But when we wanna support them, we can bring in all sorts of things that might catch their interest and just see what does. Or if nothing does, it’s totally okay that this is as far as they wanna do it right now, because there literally is no timeline.
And I will put a link in the show notes to my conversation with Alec Traaseth who unschooled all the way. I think he was in his early twenties, when he decided to go to college. And he’s now doing his PhD in math. He discovered his love of math.
JAE: Oh, he’s an adult unschooler.
PAM: Yeah. So, it’s a Growing Up Unschooling episode with him.
JAE: Interesting. When did he learn first learn math? When did he start learning, I guess you could say, basic math. Was it earlier than normal? Did he learn it later in life?
PAM: I love this question, because I wonder how you’re defining basic math. Mathematician’s Lament is gonna be really cool for you, because for me, there’s a distinction between the formal math notation. Like how we write out addition, how we write out multiplication, is that what you’re doing with basic? Your kids will learn how to add things together and see that multiplication, it’s just a really fast way to add together groups of numbers. And my experience is they pick up so much mathematical understanding, like the pattern pieces, patterns, logic. All these pieces make up math, formal notation and memorizing formulas is really such a small piece of what the world of math is. So, keeping that definition small is one of the challenging things. So, that’s why A Mathematician’s Lament is so great. It’s been many years since I read it, but that was my big takeaway.
So, the sewing, when my daughter was really into into sewing things while she was listening to audiobooks, there was so much pattern work in there, knitting, there was so much pattern work.
Computer games, there’s so much data inside computer games, navigation. There are numbers galore, like you said, all around us and recognizing that, just because we can’t write down the mathematical sentence to represent it, doesn’t mean we don’t understand what is happening behind two plus two. We don’t need to be able to write down two plus two equals four to understand.
So, the moment we see the notation, it’s like, oh, that is just representing this thing that I already know. And it’s so fascinating to watch unschooling kids in action and how they do so many of these things in the way that makes sense to them. Even the notation. You remember, “Show your work,” because you can’t just give the answer and you have to use the process that the teacher tells you that you have to use. Any process that gets you to the right answer works. It’s just not the one that they wanted to see, et cetera.
So, peeling apart all that is super interesting and super fun. And for Alec, I will put the link in the show notes for people to hear, but I believe that growing up, he was very much into gaming. So, a lot of his knowledge about math came through gaming. When he decided to go to college, I think he did maybe a couple of months of Khan Academy just to catch up on some of that so that he could write the test and test out of some of the beginner math. But those are different choices. Some people just go to college.
There was somebody else, another interview that I did for that series. And she’s like, “I don’t want to do that catch up. I’ll just go and do the classes at the college that are already for the schooled kids who didn’t pick it up in their 12 years of school. I’ll go do a couple of semesters of basic math, because I’ve been doing all sorts of other fun things for my life up to this point. Now is when I wanna do it. I’ll catch up with their basic math remedial courses,” remedial only because they thought they’d get them in those 12 years of classes beforehand, but they didn’t. There are so many different choices.
And then Alec went into engineering and then found he didn’t like that, but he liked the math part of it. It’s much better to go back and listen to the episode. It has been a few years, but I’m connected with him on social media and he’s now in the PhD program for math, because he found that he loved math and that he wants to become a teacher or professor. And so, not doing math up through his teenage years, like no formal math, did not slow him down at all.
And so, that’s the fascinating piece is that’s why it’s so great to hit things when they’re actually interesting to us, not do them in prep just in case someday we might be. When it’s interesting, then we have the determination, we have the intrinsic motivation. We have the reason, the goal. Maybe it’s something that we just have to tick off to get where we wanna go. We really wanna get there, because it’s our choice. It’s not because I wanna get my degree because that’s what everybody does. And I need to have that degree to get the job that I’m supposed to or whatever.
But when it’s our choice, there is so much that we’ll do, not because we love it on its own, but because it’s on the path to the places that we wanna go. But when it’s on our timetable, it’s a whole different world.
Anyway, so yeah, that’s my math thing. I grew up loving math. I took math all through university and I could not do any of it now, because I didn’t even end up using it for work much when I worked out of university. So, it’s just so fascinating to see how math unfolds. And it’s another area, between math and reading, our society has just drummed in our head that these are so important and they’re so important that we can’t leave them to the child. Like, when is a child gonna wanna sit down and do a math worksheet? Yeah, you’re right. They’re probably not. But that’s not the only way. Yes. That’s the way that works really well in school. But that’s because of the system and the constraints that they have within the system and the classroom and their time limit. That’s why it makes sense. That is the way to do it in school, in the classroom.
Yet, when you don’t have that constraint, you can see the bigger picture of math. You can see how it lives in the world and your kids can just pick that up because they’re living in it. And when they’re super excited about a thing, absolutely let’s find ways to bring more of that thing into their life, but see whether or not that actually excites them. It’s like, my child wanted to take piano lessons and damn they’re so, so good. They’re gonna be a pianist. And then all of a sudden, I’ve got all that weight on top of them. And they can feel that energy, that expectation that, you’re good at this, you’re talented at this. So, you really should keep going with this, whether or not it’s something that brings them, that joy that we were talking about earlier.
JAE: Yeah. And that’s probably the biggest thing that I’ve noticed about myself that I have to constantly check myself with, because I am extremely competitive and I don’t like being mediocre, for me. So, if I’m interested in something, I want to be at the very least above average to exceptional at it.
And I kind of want that for my kids, but I’ve gotta realize, that’s me. So, I don’t want my desires and my goals to be a weight on them. So, it’s this back and forth of, okay, I want to inspire her to continue following her interests, but I don’t want to do it just because I want her to win a Nobel prize for math or economics or something. I don’t want it just because of that.
For example, I say to my wife, because she does watch a lot of TV. So, I’ll say to my wife, I think she really likes the stories. Like, I wouldn’t be surprised if she like writes a book or makes a movie or her own show or something like that, because she’s so into those things. But if she’s not, I’m okay with that. If her watching six hours of TV one day doesn’t lead her to being an award-winning director, I gotta be able to separate those things. And so, what you said was right on and part of my deschooling process is, I don’t want these arbitrary standards and rules and expectations on them. I want them to live within their own journey and their own path.
PAM: The one thing that just bubbled up for me when you were speaking there, like wanting to inspire them and that is awesome. The tweak that I think might help, or you might wanna think about, peel back some layers around, is we can inspire, I think, through the things that we choose to do. So, you can be inspiring to your child because of the way you dive into the things that you love. Because they don’t need inspiration to pursue the things they’re interested in. That’s coming from the top and is trying to push them to something in particular. Rather, we can just help them do the things they are already inspired to do, they are already motivated to do. I don’t think that inspiration is something we need to instill in them. I think it’s a better frame to go in with, I wanna help them find the things that they are so motivated and inspired by they wanna keep doing.
So, instead of saying, oh, you really like numbers or TV or whatever, I don’t need to come in and inspire you to do more of it. Like, am I doing enough? Bring in possibilities around that thing so they can discover how interested in or how motivated they are to keep going if they are inspired. Inspiration to me feels internal to the person. I am inspired to do this thing because I love it so much and I’m passionate about it or whatever.
So, if doing things that are inspiring to ourselves is something that’s a high a high value for you, you can show it through the things you’re choosing to do and the things you’re inspired about and passionate about, and just showing and sharing how much fun you’re having doing it. And then just helping them find the things that are inspiring to them. You know what I mean? It’s almost doing the same things, but doing it from a different perspective.
Instead of trying to inspire them to come in this direction, “Because you like this thing, I’m gonna inspire you to get to the next level by showing you what the next level is,” instead, we can underneath them, help them explore where they are and just see if they continue to be inspired and motivated to keep moving down and finding the path that works for them. Because that’s one of the things, just to use my daughter’s example, as a young teen and through her teen years, she loved going to concerts. We called them shows. And she started playing guitar. And I could have taken that interest as, she loves music. She’s wanting to play an instrument. She’s loving these musicians.
So, I could have assumed that was the path that they were interested in and were inspired upon. And I could have been like, oh, but what about lessons? Oh, but this. I could have been trying to inspire her to move down that path. Yet now, looking back, what I’ve seen is her passion was really photography and that’s what inspired her. And how that interest in music has come around is that now, as a photographer, she works almost exclusively with musicians now. So, she’s like, I love their creative energy. I love photographing them. I love working with them to create the images. And all that kind of stuff.
So, what I thought was the path or what seemed like the most logical path for their interest was completely different from how it ended fitting really well into their life, the way it wove into their life eventually.
So, I think that can be the challenge, if again, even back to the piano, maybe what brings them joy is that they’re gonna learn to play the songs that they love and at family gatherings, they just love getting everybody going and, and playing the music around people that they love. And that will be a beautiful thing over the years versus a concert pianist.
What seems to us to be the logical path forward for their interest, if we’re trying to inspire them, we are inspiring them in a particular direction, whereas if we’re supporting them and helping them just explore the possibilities where they are in this moment, then that helps them find the path that they may or may not or want to or don’t want to, or maybe five years from now pick up.
It seems almost like semantics, but that was, for me, a huge unschooling a-ha moment, to recognize the difference of the effect I was having when I saw something that they loved and that they were interested in and then I wanted to support them, recognizing that, oh, the things that I’m bringing into their life are just the things that are pointing them in the direction of where I think it’s going to go, even if it’s not like, I want them to be a concert pianist or whatever, it’s still like, but that’s the only way I see this unfolding just because of my experiences.
So, to get back, I’m always talking about beginner’s mind, getting back to open and curious, it’s about how did they see it? How might they see it? Which ties into, am I doing enough? Because then it’s just bubbling up different possibilities for them. It’s taking ourselves out of that picture completely. But again, it’s not stepping back. It’s being completely engaged with them, because that’s what helps them process. “Oh, look, you brought this book and no, that’s not interesting to me,” or, “We did this thing and, oh, that’s not very interesting to me.” “Oh, this is super interesting to me,” but we’ve helped them see the possibilities that exist where they are and then they get to pick and see what direction it goes.
So again, it’s not stepping back, but it’s just stepping in with them where they are versus where we imagine they might go.
JAE: Can I ask you a quick question with that?
PAM: Yeah. Yeah.
JAE: So, from your experience with it, is it better to ask ahead and be okay with the no? Or is it to present the opportunity and be okay with the no? So, let’s say like your daughter, she was interested in the guitar. Would it be like, “Oh, it seems like you’re really interested in the guitar. Would you be interested in some lessons?” Or would it be like, “Hey, I saw these lessons that so-and-so is offering. They said they could do it on Tuesday. Would that be something you’re interested in?” You see where my question’s going?
PAM: I would at first try both ways and see which works better for my child. For me, I found I would try to, instead of asking ahead of time, especially when it’s something new, because they don’t really know the context of it, they don’t really know much about what it would be, saying, “Oh, I found out about this park or this thing, do you wanna go?” so often the answer just to a quick question like that may well be no, because they don’t really know what’s there. You would have to launch into a 20-minute conversation about it.
So, for me, it was more about bringing in enough information so they could make those choices.
JAE: Real decisions.
PAM: Yeah. So, that’s why I’m saying, bringing in the game, bringing in the books, bringing in the things, not saying, “Oh, I heard about this game that has something to do with numbers. Would you like me to get it?” That is just not enough. But, “I picked up this game here. It looked really fun. I tried it out.” And then you can connect it to something that they’re interested in. So, it’s not convincing them. It’s not trying to control or convince yet it’s giving them enough context and information so they can make a more informed choice.
So, as much as I could, I tried to just bring it in and let them choose if it was interesting to them. Bigger things or things that cost more or that you have to travel to, those would need to be discussions ahead of time. It’s not like, “Oh, hey, we’re gonna go and travel to this other state, because I heard about this conference that I think you’d really love,” something like that. Yet, I would still try to gather as much information and I would still try to share the pieces that I thought would be interesting to them. Again, so that they can make a more informed choice if it’s something that they want to do or don’t wanna do.
And then the other piece, too, is also knowing that when you’ve shared something and they’ve said no, that doesn’t mean that’s a no forever. There were definitely times, like six months, two years down the road, where one of my kids came home and said, “Hey, remember you mentioned that thing? Hey, next time it’s around, I think I’d like to try it.” Or pieces like that. You’re helping them just by mentioning things. You’re bringing them into the world, whether or not they do it, they know that those things exist now. And so, whenever it makes a connection for them, whatever they’re interested in it, they know it’s something that’s on the plate that they can choose. So, it may, at some point, become something they wanna do.
That makes sense, right?
JAE: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I’ve talked in one of my videos about how my daughter, she doesn’t have an interest in reading right now. I mentioned, she’s basically seven years old and so we’ve been going to these different groups or whatever. She’s been going to these different groups where she’s around other first graders and obviously, all of them are reading. Not obviously, but all of them are reading. And so, she gets this awkwardness with it and discomfort. So, we talk through it. We talk through, it was like, “How does this make you feel? Why do you feel that way?”
And one day in those conversations, she said, “I want to read, because I don’t like the way it makes me feel to be around people that do know how to read and I want to learn how to read.” And I was like, “Okay, that’s fine.” So, I was like, “Well, there are a lot of ways we could do this. You know, we could just pick up books you’re interested in. I could read them to you. Or there’s little phonics things that you could do. There’s all kinds of stuff.” And just giving her different information and options with it.
And one person recommended this reading series, All About Reading, I think is the name of it. And I looked at it and it it had all these little games and this little stuffed animal sock thing. And I was like, oh, this looks interesting. So, I showed it to her. I was like, “Hey, would you be interested in this?” She was like, “Yeah, that looks cool.” So, we started doing it and she was liking it, but not like, I wanna do this every day liking it. So I’ll offer. I’ll say, “Hey, you wanna do reading?” Sometimes, she’s like, “No, not today, Daddy. I wanna watch this show. It’s getting good.”
But then, there are other days she’ll do it and there’s other days she won’t do it. And some days, she’ll literally do do it for two or three hours, just me and her working on this little reading program. What she likes and that’s why I feel like she’s literally gonna write a book one day or a movie or something or a script, but she likes making sentences. She doesn’t like reading other people’s sentences, but she likes making her own. So, she’s gonna be a Pam Laricchia one day, writing multiple books.
But yeah, so everything you said, it really resonated, because I want to support. But then I don’t wanna do it just because I want my baby to read before she’s this age. And at the same time, I don’t want to feel like she said, like she didn’t like the way she felt not knowing how to read. And I get that, because I’ve been in situations where I just felt awkward around my peers and I don’t want her to feel that way. And this is something that can help her toward maybe lessening that discomfort, but also understanding that everybody’s gonna be different. Just because your friends know how to read, you do other things very exceptional and understanding that, I don’t want you to judge yourself based on your peers and surroundings.
So, it’s like, unschooling, it’s this whole thing, right? I’m just describing like one little lesson. There are so many layers and so much to pull back from. But it’s everywhere. Learning is everywhere.
PAM: So, I remember those times, too, and just throwing in conversations with him about how they need to learn reading early for school, because that’s how they get stuff from the teacher. They need to be able to read for school. You’re spending your time doing other things. And then when he would hang out with them, he could see that there were other things that he was more skilled at.
And it’s just like, one’s not better than the other. It’s just like, what works for them. And because they’re going to school, they need to spend their time working on that skill, whereas you’re doing all sorts of other things that you really love. You’re really good at X that they don’t have a lot of experience with. So, just to open that window.
Because for some kids, they are naturally gonna read later. We don’t know for sure how it’s going to unfold for them. So, to feel like there’s a pressure that this is something that they can just learn when they want to learn, that can be a hard thing for them, because if they find it more difficult, if they’re not developmentally ready for it yet, that can feel like it’s a failure of theirs.
So, when it’s like, we learn different things at different times, and then, this is a reading game. It’s like playing with words. And if you like playing with words and you like stringing them together in your sentences, whenever you wanna play that, we can play that. And then, because she’s interested in it, I remember there were times when, because what they call reading and learning to read, especially in grade one, it’s a subset of words. They can’t pick up a Harry Potter book or pick up books like that and read.
And one thing many parents have found over the years is that that’s how unschooling kids define, being able to read is what reading looks like in the world, like picking up any book or walking past any sign and being able to read it. Many of us have found our kids will say, “I can’t read,” or, “I don’t read,” but that’s their measure.
So, sometimes when he was disappointed that he wasn’t reading, I’d be like, “Well, what’s this word?” The words that I knew he knew already, to say, well, you’re reading, it’s just more words that you would like to bring in to your world.
The other piece, you said she loves watching TV, maybe ask if she wants to put subtitles on. That’s another way that you can bring words into her world in the way she likes her world. So, it’s again, not saying textbooks and worksheets or phonics games and learning to read programs are bad, but they’re not the only way. They’re just one option. There is so much more to the world of numbers and words that really do exist in our environment that can be all sorts of ways, rather than the one school-looking way. Because the school-looking way looks that way because of the system. And once we’re outside of the system, there are more possibilities.
It doesn’t mean we don’t do those other things, but they’re just one of many possibilities. So, when you feel like play in the reading game and putting sentences together, that’s cool. We’ll play that. But it doesn’t have more value over putting on the subtitles on her favorite shows, than that, or any other way we may choose to do.
I remember we used to make little reading cards, just put words on an index card, words that he knew and words that he wanted to know. “What are some words you’d like to know how to read right now? What words would you like to be able to put in your sentences and stuff?” And we would just make flash cards and just play with those, just playing games in their world. So, it’s not defining for them, “You should be able to read this book,” but what words are coming up that you would like to be able to read. We just learn so much about each other when we approach and make it playful and no one has value over another as the right way to learn how to read, because it is so different for different kids.
There are a lot of kids who feel bad about their reading skills in school. It’s just because that way doesn’t work well for them. The way their brain works and wants to pick up that skill is very different from the way that they teach it there. And for some kids, they pick it up just fine. So, it’s being able to be open and just pick what seems to connect for her and the way she likes to play with words versus controlling it that way.
This has been a super fun conversation, Jae. We still have a couple of questions to go. All right.
What has surprised you most about your unschooling journey this year?
JAE: Well, I think I’ve said that a few times, but the most surprising thing is how challenging it is and how it really for focuses you to really dig into your prejudices and different things that I’ve just grown up to have in my life and then tearing all of that down and then building this new world in the image that I want it to be. It’s scary, it’s intimidating, sometimes even frustrating. But at the same time, the process is going slower than I would like, because obviously we want it done. But, I’m a coach. So, one thing I say to my guys that I’m coaching, it’s not about winning the state championship. It’s not about winning at the end, because I’ve done that and it feels amazing. But when you’ve done it and you look back, you realize it’s the journey getting there.
And so, that’s something that, with this unschooling, the journey, getting to where, like what you described, even the little examples with the TV, with my daughter, the subtitle thing, that’s something that we do now. And sometimes she’s like, “Oh, can I watch this show in Spanish?” And then she’ll see the English subtitles with it in Spanish, and it’s like, just seeing these creative ways of building this world the way you want it to be. But then being okay with, actually, I don’t like this door. You’ve built it, but let’s tear it down and let’s put another door there or maybe wall it, or maybe there’s no door at all and having an open path. Sorry for all the literal examples, but so, that’s been something in this last year, just building this world in the image that I that I want, that fits with our family, that works for me and my son and my wife and I, and it’s challenging, it’s difficult, but at the same time, that journey of doing it, it’s fun. It’s those relationships that you build.
And I’ve said this in one of my videos, as well, early on. There are two huge benefits about unschooling that I don’t think people talk enough about. One they do talk about is the relationships, that bond with your kids. It is so deep and it’s so strong, it’s almost scary. So, it makes me think. It’s like, wow. I want this with everybody now, not just my kids. I want everybody, particularly in my circle, like your mom and your sisters and your nephews and nieces and, and in-laws and cousins, you want this close bond, but then you don’t have the time. You don’t necessarily have the time to build these bonds.
And then, that goes to this next thing, the ability to slow down. We are able to be so intentional about our relationships that we don’t focus on the keeping up with the Joneses and the consumerism of it. And just buying different things and working to buy things and accomplish things. It’s like, no, we can focus on our relationship and our core. And trying to get people outside of your household to grasp that is a little difficult, but at the same time, it’s enjoying the journey of it, because I know in the end of the day, we’re going to be out of this cave and we’re gonna see the light.
And so, yeah. This might be a little bit of a struggle now, but Grandma, Grandpa, Aunties, we really love you and we want to have a strong relationship with you. And so, let’s focus our time on that, not on these arbitrary standards and goals that I guess family is supposed to have, these get-togethers that are like oh, let’s have this get together even though we are not happy with each other right now. When in our house, we’re not happy with each other, we talk it out and we talk it out for as long as it takes to figure it out. And we figure out, okay, why are we not happy with each other? What’s in the way? Answering these whys.
And so, all of this, like I said, it’s going this whole thing. And we’re talking about educating our kids, but it goes into so many different aspects of my life. And so, to answer your question, this last year, the slowing down and really making relationships so intentional, that’s been a huge part of what we’re doing. And then, our bond with my kids has been so strong and just wanting to spread that to other key relationships we have in our families, in our lives.
PAM: I love that you mentioned the slowing down piece, because I think that, looking back, that was one of the biggest a-ha or unexpected things for me was coming to realize how much open space we needed. When the kids first left school, it was like, oh, we can go to the science center all the time and we can go here. We can do this. It was all the things that we can do now that we have the time to do all these things. And all of a sudden, nobody wants to do the things. We’re not going to the science center every week!
JAE: That’s so true. Every week, Pam, our first month, we were the museum champions. We went to beaches. We did the sea turtle events. We did everything every week and people were like, “Oh my goodness! You’re doing so much.” You could even see it on my videos. And then you haven’t seen those videos in months, because it’s been us chilling on the couch, in the backyard. You just realize it’s like, okay, am I doing this because I really want to do it, or because it looks good to other people to do it? And you get these aha moments like, oh, let’s just slow down. And what really brings us joy?
And when we realize, in our household, what brings us the most joy is us, that time with each other, the communication, playing a game. Actually, this is one of the questions that you asked.
PAM: What’s your favorite thing about the flow of your unschooling days?
JAE: Exactly, exactly. Right. So, my son, he’ll come to me, wake me up, and say, “Hey, daddy.” And tell me about his dreams. Him telling me about his dreams, it literally brings such a smile on my face. It sounds corny, but he’s like, “Oh, so I had this dream and it was this dinosaur, but he was a good dinosaur and blah, blah, blah.” And it’s like, just hearing about his dreams, so it’s like, I literally look forward to that, being woken up to hear about my little guy’s dreams. It’s just having this flow. I’ve been using that since our last conversation, we talked about flow, like having this flow in our lives. And I like even what you were say with the routines, it’s been so many beautiful moments with it within it.
But in order to really recognize it, you have to slow down. You have to slow down.
PAM: Yeah. You have to slow down, because that gives the space for all these things to bubble up. You don’t know what you’re missing until there’s space for this stuff to organically happen and unfold.
I remember there was a season in my daughter’s young teens where, when she would wake up in the morning, it was a ritual, a routine, whatever, I would make a coffee for both of us and come back to her room and we would just sit in her bed for half an hour, an hour, have a coffee and chat. Maybe we’d be listening to music or we’d have just whatever conversation bubbled up. And that season went on for months, maybe even a year, but different things bubbled up with different kids. And you start to realize just how valuable that is, how valuable that is for our connection, for our understanding of each other, for everybody to feel seen and heard. And, just like you were saying, the relationships in general.
And we come to recognize how valuable that is and how important that is to us to have the space for that to unfold versus, like you said, doing all the things so that we’re looking super good from the outside. No. This is what feels really good to all of us on the inside. And that’s what’s important to us. That’s part of the journey of peeling all that back. And, yeah, I was so surprised how much time we would like for processing, even if it was spending the afternoon, swinging outside, listening to music, when your kids are a little bit older. So much processing.
JAE: No, they love it. AC/DC. That’s her, my daughter’s, favorite. Both of them. They love AC/DC, which is weird, like classic rock and roll. My little brown kids loving classic rock and roll is just funny, but yeah, no, you’re right.
PAM: It’s amazing. It’s amazing how much space as human beings we like to have to process things and we love doing stuff, too, but the difference between the expectation and what it looks like we’re doing versus how often we actually want to be doing can be so very different.
And the doing of the things is so different when it’s organically our choice, as in, we want to do this right now versus, “Hey, let’s go to the museum. It’ll be fun! Let’s all go!” The whole energy when choice and agency really becomes the foundation of the things that we do, you don’t think you’re not doing that at first. You think, I can do all the things! This is gonna be fun! And you think you’re choosing those and I mean you are, but when you peel back the layers to get to, ooh, why am I making this choice? How does it feel? Do other people wanna do it? It’s like night and day, isn’t it? It’s a whole different world, as you said, Jae. That is just so beautiful. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today, Jae. It was amazing. Thank you.
JAE: Yeah, it was fun. It was, I feel like, free therapy and coaching, as well. So, I love it. I love it.
PAM: Oh, yay! Well, before we go, can you let people know where they can connect with you online?
JAE: Yeah, so I still have my YouTube channel, BlackDad, all one word. And on Twitter, @blackdadjourney, actually Instagram, as well, @blackdadjourney.
Something I’ve noticed with both of those is that this process of slowing down, I realize there’s certain things I wanna focus on, and I love the creating. I still love the creating the videos. And so, I still do them, but I’m not putting the pressure of doing it every week like I was. I was trying to do this thing every week, because I want to go viral and I was like, no. I want to share my journey. I want it to be organic. And if I don’t have one for a few weeks, I don’t have one for a few weeks. But then when I do, I know that I put my heart into it. I love it. I enjoy it.
And so, you’re not gonna see it every week like you would probably like, but I’m still doing it. I haven’t quit on YouTube or any of that yet in creating, because I absolutely do love it. It does bring me joy. So, BlackDad YouTube channel, @BlackDadJourney on Twitter and Instagram.
PAM: All right. I will put links to those in the show notes and I loved hearing a little bit about your journey with that, too. It’s so fascinating as we figure out our lives in this moment. Isn’t it?
JAE: Exactly. It’s a lot. It’s a lot, but it’s fun. The journey’s worth it.
PAM: It definitely is. Thanks so much, Jae. Have a great day.
JAE: You, too.
PAM: Thanks.