We’re back with the fourth episode in our series in which we’re working our way through Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
Today, we’re continuing our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage eight: Accepting the Value of All Experiences. We’ve questioned our beliefs about learning and about parenting. Now we’re moving beyond judgement. As our understanding of this new world of unschooling grows, we are drawn to digging deeper. Using the lens of unschooling, we’re exploring what it means to be a human being living fully in the world, with all of the ups and downs.
We had a great time diving in. We hope you find this episode helpful on your unschooling journey!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
Learn more about Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello, everyone. I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully. And I am joined today by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis.
ANNA, ERIKA: Hello.
PAM: And we are back with another episode in our A Field Guide series. We are working our way through my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, which is framed around the hero’s journey and is a weave of myths, contemporary stories and tales from my own journey.
We are now deep in the deschooling phase. In the last episode of this series, episode 413, we dug into some of the popular conventional paradigms about parenting, and we found more truths buried there. And as we continue our journey on the road of trials, we’re exploring the idea of accepting the value of all experiences.
If you’re newer to unschooling, and this is your first time exploring these truths, you’re likely dancing with these ideas intellectually to understand what they mean and some of their further reaching implications. If you’ve been unschooling for a while and feel like you already intellectually embrace these ideas and have been bringing them into your family’s lives, now’s the time to peel back some more layers to build more connections and context around them, strengthening your web of understanding with your personal experiences, building your wisdom as you move towards believing them in your bones as your own truth.
Now we are well into the deschooling phase. In the last two stages, we challenged those conventional pieces of wisdom around learning, like embracing curiosity rather than following curriculum, and parenting, replacing control with connection as our relationship dynamic with our kids. These stages often have lots of twists and turns as we bring these ideas into life, life into our family, and see how things unfold, right?
Again, not about right or wrong. We’re gaining experience, we’re seeing how things happen. So this episode, which is stage eight of the journey, we’re exploring the idea of accepting the value of all experiences. In other words, we’re moving beyond judgment. Now here we go. As our understanding of this new world of unschooling grows, we are drawn to digging deeper.
Using the lens of unschooling, we’re exploring what it means to be a human being living fully in the world. So Joseph Campbell calls this stage the meeting with the goddess. So in myths and stories, the hero must be spiritually prepared to meet this revered goddess, the universal mother, who represents the whole cycle of life.
To meet her in her true form is to rise to her challenge and be able to contemplate the entire birth death cycle that she presents with equanimity with calmness and composure, the ups and the downs, the good and the bad, cosmic creation and destruction, to be able to hold both of these seemingly opposing ideas, opposites in your mind with comparable appreciation. So in the book, I shared that Kali from Hindu mythology is a great example of the kind of goddess you might meet in this stage. As a goddess of time, creation and destruction, she represents both the benevolence of a caring, comforting mother, and the fury of an aggressive punishing one, as well as the expanse of time that contains them both. So, when we look at Kali’s right side, we see good and on the left, we see bad. That’s what she represents. And when we are ready to grasp the truth that lies at the heart of this stage, we see her full nature, both. We see her in full. And we’ve been preparing to meet our Kali with all that we’ve learned so far on our unschooling journey. Like how on earth are we going to link those together?
Here we go. We started to see the connections play out between our new perspective on things like we talked about in the last Field Guide episode, like why quitting things isn’t bad, right? Why saying yes more to our kids isn’t bad. Why are kids seemingly doing nothing is not bad. We’ve noticed times when we didn’t stop our child from making a choice that we feared might go badly. And they went on to happily engage with the activity.
So by giving our days the time to unfold more naturally, we’ve seen new and interesting things take root in the wake of destruction and upset many times. From a fallen block tower springs a taller, sturdier one. From highly anticipated plans falling through emerges, say, a spontaneous trip to the park, or a cuddly movie day, which turns out to be just what was needed.
Without knowing it, we have been thoroughly preparing ourselves for this meeting. And for me, I think the key shift has been your mantra, Anna, there’s plenty of time. The trick was giving moments more time and space to unfold. That allowed me to see how seemingly good and bad moments actually weave together that they’re not like just separate single incidents. They’re not like these distinct events where I can tell you that like, oh, we had five good moments today and seven bad moments. So that was a losing day, or if they were the opposite, that was a winning day, right?
To see the fuller, bigger picture, see how this is our life and, and the good and bad were weaving together. But that block tower one is just something I remember, you know, one kid running up and knocking it over. And like just those pieces, think of your own stories in your own life. Think back to when you’ve seen those things go from, from bad something upsetting to working out well, and vice versa. It’s all so very interesting, I think.
ANNA: Yeah, it is. And I think Kali is such an interesting representation for this phase, because many people are very afraid to get Kali in a reading because they associate her with destruction. But yes, both pieces are there, creation and destruction.
And it fits here so well, because how I see that destruction part is really just a sweeping away of old paradigms, creating a clean slate, allowing us to build a stronger foundation when that tower of our ideas are knocked down, and a new framework to support where we are now with all of this new information that we’re taking in. And it really can’t be built on top of the old. We can take what we’ve learned with us. So it’s not that we’re leaving everything behind.
But letting go of the fear around letting go of the old and embracing a new paradigm allows us to fully open to all it can bring us. And a lot of discomfort comes, I think, in straddling the old and new, because we aren’t actually fully in either at that point. And releasing judgment was such a key part of my journey.
You know, in my 20s, I loved a good debate and was quite adept at it. And as I started to value connection over winning, I realized how disconnecting the judgment was. I will never know what’s best for another person, even my child. So any judgment of them or their actions actually just keeps me from learning about them, who they are, how they want to move through the world, what their priorities are.
And honestly, it keeps my own learning stagnant. If I’m so sure I know what’s best, how do I see a new way, a way that might serve me better in this moment where I am right now. And I love the tally piece that you mentioned because I think it’s a really slippery slope.
If we are focused on categorizing the day or the event as good or bad, we’re missing the nuance that exists in every day, every event, because there’s always going to be both, they exist together. And while our brain can like this idea of categorizing as a shortcut, it really takes us out of being present in each moment. And it can end up dictating our emotions around it.
So have we had a good week? Okay, then I can feel happy and feel good. I’m a great parent, we’ve done it this week. But then if this week has been bad, then there must be something wrong with me, and I should have done something differently.
That type of judgment and kind of surface level ranking just doesn’t serve us personally or relationally. And it can really keep us stuck in this yucky cycle, instead of learning and growing together. And so that is something to watch for that like, oh, this was good and so now this means X, you know, whereas again, I think the idea of plenty of time really does help just let things unfold, and not getting attached to those pieces, we just learn so much more.
ERIKA: Yes, I like this phase, because it really feels to me like having gained some perspective, and maybe some maturity, after making a whole lot of huge mental shifts and paradigm shifts we’ve been working through in the last few episodes. And so I just think life is so much more nuanced than there’s one right answer, or there’s one right way to do something. And I think we may absorb that message in school that there is a right answer or one right path.
But it’s so much more real and true to living life in this world to be in this gray area, there are infinite possibilities, there are infinite paths, we’re not sure how it’s going to play out. And so I feel a lot more grounded and safe when I have that perspective, and I’m not clinging so strongly to this is good, this is bad.
I also feel a lot more generous and nonjudgmental towards other people as well. Because I can recognize, we’re just all doing our best in each moment to meet our own needs and just figure out what’s going to work best for us. And we’re all different. And I don’t need to judge others. And I just feel like it’s a grounding place to be, when we get to this stage.
PAM: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay, so the next aspect we want to explore around the idea of accepting the value of all experiences is moving beyond this is good and bad. So in the book, I share a quote that’s usually attributed to Alexander Graham Bell. When one door closes, another opens. But we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.
I think that succinctly describes life before this encounter with the goddess, right? We don’t realize the connection between destruction and creation between good and bad on that continuum of time. So this is the wisdom that the stories of Kali and other cosmic mother goddesses are meant to convey, rather than being tossed around by the ups and downs of life, like that whole roller coaster image, we now see the value of and the connection between those moments.
So as we’ve been paying attention on our journey, giving things time and space to unfold, which you hear us talking about all the time on the podcast, we’ve soon experienced the cycle and had time to learn that trying to rush through the down times doesn’t work. We can’t pry open a door that doesn’t want to give. We’ve learned that doesn’t mean passively sitting back and waiting.
It means being attentive, just like from that quote, right? Maybe knocking on a door, wandering the hallway, noticing the door that’s slightly ajar, hearing the faint click of a doorknob being unlocked. Eventually, something happens and things move forward, maybe in unexpected ways.
But in my experience, often in more interesting ways than we had first imagined. That was us looking at that door, that’s where we thought we were going. That’s where we thought things were going to be. But when we there’s just so many more ways that life can unfold.
I actually really learned this more through observing my kids’ lives in action. So often, when I was able to stretch my comfort zones and follow them where they were eager to go, the door they wanted to go through, I saw them learning so much, both when things went well and when they didn’t. There’s that good/bad.
I was humbled by how often my initial predictions were just flat out wrong. Thank goodness I kept them to myself because I wasn’t ready quite yet to admit how often I was wrong. But without me clouding their experience with my judgment, they could more clearly and directly learn what was most valuable to them in the moment, because that’s where their mind was.
That’s where their whole body was. I want to be in this moment, and just see how it plays out. So as my wish to understand my children’s perspective, and choices grew, my need to judge them truly faded.
And with that, so did so many of our conflicts, and our trust in each other grew. And again, remember that not judging isn’t about giving in or giving up or saying do whatever you want, right? It’s about engaging more deeply but with openness. The image that helps me is beginner’s mind. What can I learn here? That’s what this stage is encouraging us to discover.
It’s about seeing the value of all aspects of life, moving through the bad moments with as much awareness as the good ones, not covering your eyes and trying to ignore them until they pass. Because, as you see, through all the ups and downs, all these moments are integral to our lives. They all mean something. They all help us learn something.
ERIKA: Yeah, that’s a huge shift when we can stop labeling things as good and bad. It’s just more complicated than that. And I think our judging tends to influence what happens next. And so I don’t, I certainly don’t want to label my day as a bad day, especially at the beginning, which I do hear people do that sometimes. Because a day has all kinds of moments in it. And we don’t know what’s going to happen next.
And by labeling it bad, I think we’re just setting ourselves up for well, now it is going to be bad because we said that. But we learned from it all. In some of the meditation courses I’ve participated in, I really came to understand and value that idea of equanimity.
It’s a power that we can cultivate, to be able to just witness the turbulent nature of life and still see the bigger picture. It feels like not getting swept up by every little thing that’s happening. And it helps keep me going and moving towards the things that I want.
Whereas if I am getting swept up, it makes it so I’m so overwhelmed that I can’t even face what’s happening or make decisions or move forward. And so I feel like if we can move away from judging ourselves, judging others, judging all the moments as good or bad, I think there’s just so much more potential and so many more possibilities in front of us. To me, it has a very spacious feeling.
ANNA: Yeah, I really like that visual, witnessing the turbulent nature of life, but not getting swept away. I think that therein lies that practice of equanimity and just presence. I feel like the categorizing that I mentioned earlier keeps us from really appreciating the nuances of all the experiences.
Each experience brings with it a wealth of knowledge and understanding about ourselves, about each other, about the world. And the idea of releasing good or bad always brings to mind for me the Taoist farmer story. I’ll post a better version in the show notes.
But the idea is that there’s a farmer who has a series of events happen to his family at each event, the village wants to weigh in with, Oh, what bad luck you’re having? Or Oh, what good luck you’re having? And each time the farmer answers maybe. His horse runs away, bad luck. Maybe. His horse returns with six more wild horses. Good luck. Maybe. His son breaks his leg on a new horse. Bad luck. Maybe. His son doesn’t have to go to war when all the other young men do. Good luck. Maybe. As the story unfolds, you see how something first appears is never the whole of the story.
And if we can step away from preconceived notions and judging everything as good or bad, it opens us to more nuances, to new paths, to new ideas. Even just bringing “maybe” into our mind when something happens can slow us down and help us widen our view. Because we get caught up with the quick snap judgment, and it creates this ripple that really narrows our focus, and keeps us from seeing the bigger picture.
And that’s the thing with good or bad, it is just this narrowing of the focus. And so if instead, I acknowledge that what is happening just is, I’m more open to seeing the opportunities for growth and learning, I’m more open to actually experiencing it. And I guess that’s a big piece for me, because judging really takes us out of the moment and puts us back into our head. We’re categorizing, this is a problem, this is not good, this is bad, end of story. But there’s no end to the story. Each bit of life leads to another and weaves into this larger tapestry.
And with openness and willingness, we can create this massive tapestry that keeps us learning and growing throughout our life. And once we understand that for ourselves, we can see that our kids are doing exactly the same. They are on their own unique journey, building their own unique, massive tapestry.
PAM: I love that piece. And the word maybe could be so helpful if you’re navigating this stage right now. And just put a little card that says maybe somewhere where you see it. It’s just a little reminder that judging something in that moment, maybe you’re right but maybe not. Let’s let things unfold.
Okay, so the next aspect we want to explore around the idea of accepting the value of all experiences is the epiphany moment. We’ve talked before about how we often understand things intellectually before we feel them as truth in our bones. And in the book, I liken the intellectual understanding as puzzle pieces we have floating around in our minds, right? They each make sense to us on an intuitive level, but they haven’t really quite solidly clicked into place.
So as you begin this stage of moving beyond judgment, you may not yet have enough puzzle pieces to grasp what this not judging thing might look like in the bigger picture. And then at some point, the piece appears that kind of changes everything. The moment that sparks this epiphany, as with so many other insights on our unschooling journey, truly might be quite ordinary. It doesn’t need to be a special puzzle piece.
It’s just the puzzle piece for you. This is the one, for some reason, that gives you the flash of insight. All of a sudden, you can see the picture you’re building, and how the pieces are going to fit together.
So, the naivete, it’s so easy to write, less so much to say. But this naive urge to judge something becomes clear, and our understanding of the value of all experiences, good, bad, otherwise, medium, whatever word you’re using, or words you’re using to judge things, rises out of the confusing free-for-all that we first envisioned at the thought of moving beyond. If we’re not judging things, everything is just, everything’s good then? What does that mean?
From this turning point, this epiphany, our perspective shifts. We stop desperately trying to avoid or escape bad moments. Understanding that they, while, absolutely not what we’ve hoped for, are just moments. And, as you often talk about, Anna, we grow to trust ourselves to handle whatever kind of moment comes our way.
A deeper sense of confidence begins to take root, as we more mindfully engage in all the moments of our days. And, we more clearly see our children living this trust and confidence. I think it’s something humans are born knowing. But, we lose track of it growing up when we’re immersed in judgment, shame, and fear. And those being used to control us. Going back to that last episode of Control and Connection. And, it hits us now. We’ve got this puzzle piece.
Life isn’t about trying to avoid the bad moments, so we can finally live our good lives. And, we’re just like, I want this good life. I want this good life. We have been living our full lives, our rich lives, all along.
ANNA: I think there’s just such a beautiful freedom in recognizing that life is going to contain it all. It’s not about optimizing. It isn’t something we can control. There is not one path that will lead to everything being perfect. I think, as the Buddhists would say, the suffering is in the attachment to that outcome. And so, to me, it really plays out.
If I’m gripping so tightly to control, thinking I can somehow make the right choice, and then everything will always be great, it feels so dysregulating when it doesn’t happen that way, when I’ve tried so hard, and then the mark has been missed. Again, that goal that we talked about a little bit earlier. If instead, I’m just open and curious, and greeting things as they come, be them obstacles or gifts, with the same open energy, I can stay regulated, and I can find the growth available to me in all of those areas, in both, in obstacles and the beautiful gifts of life.
And that’s where I got to the place that you mentioned. The epiphany for me was seeing how well we worked together, how we survived whatever came our way. We had tools to get through it, and that doesn’t take away the sting of disappointment or loss when it happens, because it still can sting. But our relationships were solid. Nothing felt shaky there. And from that foundation, the bumps felt more manageable.
So, instead of the acrobatics of trying to miss the bumps, my focus was on strengthening our connection and our communication, so that we could roll over the bumps together. That was something that I could actually influence. Attempting to stop the bumps never worked, no matter how hard I tried.
It’s outside of my control, and it ends up taking me out of the moment, and I’m actually not using the time or energy to strengthen my relationships. I’m over here juggling and trying to do something perfectly. And I think this can be really hard at first, though, because we really have been taught that there are answers, that things fit nicely into good and bad and right and wrong.
And so, when something so widely accepted, like school, isn’t working for your family, it can feel very intense. We become invested in finding the next right answer, but it’s not about that. Life is about nuance, growth, exploration.
It’s messier and more unpredictable than that. But again, I think once we embrace that and understand what we can control, which is basically just how we show up and who we are, there is a freedom, a release that happens. It opens you up to see the beauty in all of it, the beauty and the value in all experiences.
So, back to the theme.
ERIKA: I love that, and I know it feels hard sometimes, because it really does feel like maybe I can control everything, and then I’ll know how it’s going to turn out, and it’ll all turn out perfectly. But life shows me that it doesn’t work like that. But that’s not failing. That’s just life. And so, I can connect with other people, because we all are sharing this human experience of all of these parts. Life has it all.
And if someone in my life seems unable to see that for themselves, I know that’s just where they are on their own journey. I don’t have to pull them to where I am. Life has it all, the ups and the downs, and we’re just going to roll with it.
If someone’s not ready for that, I can’t get them there. It’s one of those things that I think just has to click for us in time, and I guess that’s why we’re calling it the epiphany here. So, yeah, I love that.
PAM: It has to click for us. I love that. I love that.
And, okay, so this last aspect that we want to dive into is embracing the value of time. And just imagine, time is what we’ve been talking about to see how good and bad are actually linked together, and they don’t need to be judged. They’re things that happen.
They’re things that have happened, and this led to this and maybe to this. Anyway, I had mentioned earlier that I think the key shift for me in understanding this stage of the journey was really in your mantra, Anna, there’s plenty of time. This is the piece that I wanted to bring out because there’s two aspects of time for me that came to me.
One was giving moments more time and space to unfold. That’s what we’ve been talking about. Most often, we don’t need to solve moments, right? I don’t need to ride the high of good as long as I can, and I don’t need to fix the bad as fast as I can. That is just something that fades alongside the urge to judge them, that this is what comes with the epiphany. But the other was more time to ponder things.
There’s a deeper level of understanding that comes with continuing to poke and prod our thoughts, to look at our ideas from this way and that way, up close, far away, sideways. Giving myself that time and space allowed me to see how seemingly good and bad moments actually weave together. It’s just the up and down and in and out of playing with things.
It’s like, oh, it was so useful to me to recognize when I get stuck in something, right? I need to change how I’m looking at something. And truly, if you are persistent, you will reach deeper levels of understanding, moving from the comprehension, if this is kind of your first engagement with these kinds of ideas, that makes some sense to experience.
Then you see these ideas in action. So often for us, it’s seeing them in action with our kids, right? And then to the truth, you’ve seen them play out multiple times in multiple circumstances, and you’re starting to see how they might actually apply to you as well.
And this stage is just a great example of this. If discovering the truth around learning and parenting in the last two stages was akin to adding new landmarks to your map, this stage was about taking the time to explore them more fully, eventually revealing like the secluded trails that connect them. We also get our first taste of the fruits of this inner journey. Releasing that need to be constantly judging things is just so freeing.
I mean, the curiosity that bubbles up from that, it was just life changing for me. Time is a priceless and integral part of both our journey to understand and embrace unschooling, but also the practice of unschooling itself forevermore. We’ve gone from intellectually understanding that life encompasses good and bad moments to experiencing the learning about the world and about ourselves that is found in both kinds of moments, to embracing the truth that all moments, good, bad, and all manner in between moments have value in our lives.
We are learning through the ups and downs, through the good and bad. This is life or as Campbell describes it, which I thought was cool, the nature of being. Yeah, that lands for me.
ERIKA: That’s beautiful. I love that. I can definitely find myself clinging to time when things are feeling good, and just wishing it would slow down. But really the only way to slow down time that I’ve found is to get really present, and take note of all the things that are happening in this moment. There are all kinds of feelings, experiences, things to see, people to be with. And so I don’t typically wish away time even when things are hard.
I think it’s a human impulse to do that though, like I just wish this day was over. But I think my personality specifically tends to cling to time rather than hope it goes by faster. But I have found there’s plenty of time to be just such a soothing phrase.
It’s a reminder for me to just relax, let go of my intensity about finding that solution or getting to a certain place. I mean, even physically getting to a place, we have to get to whatever, get to the party on time. And I love how we all hear Anna’s voice in our minds with that reminder.
It really helps me move out of that kind of tunnel vision and to a more grounded place where I can see what’s actually in front of me and make decisions about what to do next. And even just taking a breath can be so helpful too, just to settle down my nervous system. There’s plenty of time. We’ve got this. And just let me be present in this moment.
ANNA: Yeah. Oh my goodness. How many times do we remind each other that we’ve got this during any given week and that there’s plenty of time?! It really does calm my nervous system and sometimes it feels cheesy to type or hear. But it also calms my nervous system every time because it’s true because we have a history of having gotten it.
And so I know we will keep doing it, but I do think it’s fun to think about time. It’s just such an interesting concept and it can drive so many feelings and behaviors, or I guess maybe more accurately our reactions and interplay with time drives the feelings and behavior, but understanding that helps us see the choice, right? So time can seem to be crawling and then it can fly by in a blink and can often feel out of our control.
But I like the pieces that have been pulled out, like the idea of giving space to a moment, not needing to rush in with solutions or move quickly through it. I think we do that sometimes because we don’t like to sit in discomfort. But that discomfort has messages for us.
It’s not a scary place. It can be a place of growth and we miss that if we’re rushing through it, just like we miss the joy present in those small moments, as well, if we’re always rushing ahead to the next thing. And the unfolding became such an important concept to me.
I was a planner. I still am, but with a lighter, more playful grip. Allowing moments and days to unfold, I started to see this organic flow that was always present, a flow I had really missed in my tightly controlled timelines.
And I started to feel a real difference in my body. The tightness that I was literally carrying as I was trying to plan and control all the things versus the softness, the openness in my body when we just allowed a day to unfold. And that learning could happen in a moment when I stopped talking and observed.
These things were not easy for me. That is why ‘there’s plenty of time’ is such an important mantra for me, because I could feel myself relax with that reminder. And it is not my natural state of being. I am wanting to do, do, do, maximize, go, do. There’s not enough time.
But boy, it really helps ground me. And then the part you mentioned, Pam, about time to ponder, that was also really critical. I had to slow down and trust in the time to find the deeper layers, to better understand myself and the people around me.
And it doesn’t happen overnight. It happens with an intentional commitment to take the time to feel the feelings, to dig into the layers, to understand the connections, the reactions, the context, the ideas that we’re holding on to. I don’t think you can grow, have growth without time to be in that space.
And so what I learned about myself was that my kind of go, go, tight control and planning was really me trying to outrun some past trauma pieces and things I didn’t want to look at about myself, and maybe even about the world and the things around me. And slowing down felt really scary. But I really allowed myself space to feel the feelings and understand how my patterns from childhood were showing up now.
And that was really the only way I could make changes and show up in new ways to be the person I wanted to be for my kids. So that shift is kind of what you’re talking about Pam, the ideas, they feel great, this kind of intellectual understanding. But it took me doing this slowed down work to really get to feel it in my bones and be able to act on it from my bones versus just this intellectual understanding.
PAM: Yeah. Oh, and just to wrap things up, as I was writing the book and really thinking about the phases. I could see how those three ideas came together. That’s why I love choosing Kali, here’s a goddess who is time, creation, and destruction, those three things good, bad and unfolding, are just so integral to growing as a human being to understand what’s going on at some level. There are always more layers, as we talked about, but it’s just fascinating for me to see how these things so beautifully weave together as part of this tapestry. I love that image, too.
Okay, so thanks so much to everyone for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this dive into the third stage of the de-schooling phase of our journey, as we explored the idea of accepting the value of all experiences.
And we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue this conversation because we love talking about this stuff. It’s a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional unschooling ideas, and just start to explore and talk about what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. Your first month is free, so you can get a sense of whether the community is a good fit for you. We are excited to welcome you.
To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much, you guys.
Bye.
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