We’re back with another On the Journey episode! Pam, Anna, and Erika talked to Living Joyfully Network member Nora McDonald, who was also on the podcast a few years ago.
Nora shared an update about her family and spoke about how her unschooling journey has progressed. She also dove deep into a topic that she’s spoken a lot about on the Network, which is cultural differences. Nora is British and she currently lives in Costa Rica. Many of the expectations we take for granted in our home countries do not exist in other cultures. It’s a fascinating angle to consider as we question paradigms and realize that people are different. It was a really interesting conversation and we hope it resonates with you!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
EU340: On the Journey with Nora McDonald
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-host Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia, as well as our guest today, Nora McDonald. Hello to you all.
I’m so excited to welcome Nora to the podcast again. She first joined us in episode 340 in January of 2023. Nora is a longtime member of the Living Joyfully network and she brings the most interesting discussions. She loves nuance and to toss around ideas and process all the pieces. And that is definitely my happy place. So I’m thrilled that we can bring a bit of that to the podcast audience. So, Nora, to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everybody’s into right now?
NORA: Yeah, sure. My name is Nora. I’m British, but I have now been in Costa Rica for four and a half years. And I’ve sort of been back and forth for nearly 20 years because my husband is Costa Rican. So we have two kids. Ruben is 12. Liam is about to turn 9 next month.
I’m super into food, cooking, and baking. I have joined a cookbook club here where every month people sort of choose a theme and bring all different food to share on that theme. I also sort of accidentally started something similar, kind of on a smaller scale. So I’m doing a lot of cooking at the moment, which I’m really enjoying. I also like making British food as well, a little link with back home.
I also really love history. I’ve been sort of rediscovering history, having really liked it as a child. I spend a lot of my time listening to history podcasts and reading history books. Everything history at the moment, which has been super fun. I also really like board games, which has slightly fallen by the wayside because of all the cooking. But I have discovered that playing online with friends is a really good way to stay in touch with friends and family at home and play some fun board games. So that’s me, I think at the moment, those are my main things.
Luis, my husband, is, I feel like I’m the humanities one and he’s the kind of science and tech one.
I currently refer to him quite a lot as the IT department. He’s very handy. He’s very into computers and engineering and electronics and taking things apart and putting things back together again. He’s also super into water polo. So he goes and plays water polo with people that he has played with since he was at university several times a week. He’s super into that. That keeps him busy.
And then Ruben and Liam are very into the same kind of things. They’re both big gamers.
They love Roblox. Not really any specific trend. They go exploring everything that Roblox has to offer and lots of YouTubers talking about Roblox and different things. And then apart from that, they don’t have the kind of hobbies with a capital H. I was thinking about all the things they like and it’s these sort of little things. So they’re really into the reboot of She-Ra recently, which I do super recommend. But also they really like going to the beach. They like going to the pool.
Ruben’s got certain books that he’s really into. He’s really into the Dogman ones. There’s a series called Hundred Things to Know About Money and Food. He loves those so much. Ruben really likes it when it rains and he can snuggle up on a rainy afternoon, which is good because it’s the rainy season. So, there’s just a lot of different things going on, I guess, with them.
And then Liam is really into any kind of transport and so buses and trains and planes and helicopters, which I really like because he used to be really into them. He used to be really obsessed with level crossings. And then he sort of lost that a bit and was like, oh, no, no, I’m much too old for toys. And now he’s come back into it. And he’s constantly wanting to look up what toy he can buy. Like an airport or train tracks. And he does Roblox games as well. So he’s doing a lot of flying planes on Roblox recently. So that’s really a multi-platform interest, which is fun to see. So, I think that’s us.
ANNA: I love that. It’s just always fun to get that glimpse of everyone and just what’s happening because it’s so unique and fun. I love it.
ERIKA: I love it. It’s reminding me of something we were talking about earlier, which was how parents are also pursuing their own interests and how that can just be so cool to think of the whole family as we all are doing the things we’re interested in and kind of inspiring each other in that way.
PAM: And for me, I love the reminder that capital H hobbies doesn’t need to be a thing. So often people are like what’s their passion? What are they super interested in? What’s their big hobby?
And to be just reminded that it doesn’t need to be one thing. You said they don’t really have hobbies. And then you list it off a whole bunch of stuff for each of them. So I thought that was great.
Now, I wanted to ask since it has been almost four years since you’ve been on the podcast and the kids are getting older now, I can’t believe when you said he is about to turn nine. I’m wondering what has surprised you the most or how things have changed since we last spoke.
NORA: Yeah, it was really interesting. I was reading the transcript. One of the things is I’d forgotten how hard it was to go anywhere in the car because that has totally changed. They’re still not super big fans of long trips. But it was amazing to read back and be like, oh, my God. That was a huge part of my life.
And so it is really nice when you see, OK, that has really got easier. So there are little things like that. The other thing I was thinking about is I’ve done a lot of research into neurodiversity. And so I think I have a different understanding of my family, myself.
I think there’s a lot of neurodiversity happening, which has been really helpful just in terms of seeing different advice, the way that brains can work differently, all of that kind of stuff. So that’s been helpful. We haven’t felt the need to get any diagnoses as yet, but it’s still been really, really helpful.
And then the other really big one that I’ve posted about a lot in the network is as I was working through my process was sort of changing where I feel I stand as a parent in terms of unschooling and realizing that I was sort of expecting a certain type of child to materialize as I unschooled. And I know there is not one way to unschool. And I know that everybody’s different.
But I had just sort of encountered enough stories of these sort of certain types of unschooling kids where they’re very, they take the initiative. They want to do a deep dive in something. They want all the materials about one topic or they want to do one big capital H hobby and do all of the stuff.
And they will ask you these sort of deep questions as they’re going to sleep or as you’re in the car and they approach a lot of interesting learning that way. And my kids just never became those kids. And I really appreciate being in the network because I was sort of seeing everybody else’s stories and stuff. I was OK. This is not my parenting. This is who these people are. I’m not making a mistake and making that happen.
But I do think I needed to work out what I actually want my approach to be. Because I think for a while I really really really stepped back and just sort of thought OK. I was sort of seeing it as me being in charge. And then I started unschooling was like OK well I’ll just put them in charge. Because I tend to pendulum from one side to the other.
But I do think that was actually a really important part of the process for me because it meant that I could release my agenda, release everything I thought we should be doing. I could be focusing on observing them, getting to know them on a whole other level, understanding what worked what didn’t work. But at a certain point I felt a bit like I’m trying to be a butler. I’m bringing you the snacks and doing the things and doing all of this but sort of be nobody in the corner. And then I was like, I don’t think this is the parent I want to be. I didn’t think it was really working for us as a family.
Because yes and my kids are not really take the initiative type kids. They will just stay at home and play Roblox and go on YouTube and be there and seem very happy. But then they will get grumpy, and I noticed that actually it wasn’t really working for them either to be doing this.
I think it was even this week that one of their favorite things to do was to go to the mall and go to the food court and get food and get lunch and there are other things too but that was the constant one. And I realized that we haven’t done it for months and they haven’t said a word. They don’t even think of doing it. So I sort of was like OK I need to be a bit more proactive.
I need to be kind of making things happen. I need to be slightly more pushing them but it’s pushing them towards things that I genuinely think they will like that is super informed by how well I know them. So another example is that they really like going to this beach.
It’s called the beach house. It’s just like a flat that we’ve been to a few times. The first time they did not want to go. Absolutely not. We’re not interested. But I chose somewhere that was the closest beach, somewhere with really good Internet, somewhere with air conditioning.
It’s like this close to the beach, just a couple of meters to the beach and a couple of meters to the pool. There are showers. So, I organized around them even though they didn’t want to go. And now we can’t hear the end of it, they are just constantly asking when we are going to the beach. When do we get to the beach? He just totally loved it but he would not have chosen to go there. And so it’s been like this really interesting, it feels a bit like a tightrope.
I really don’t want to be that kind of controlling parent who’s making the decisions. But actually I do need to kind of be a bit more of the initiator. And I think they do have struggles with transitions. And I do need to be sort of a little bit of a cruise director sometimes being like come on we’ve got to get out the door but you choose. I do need to do that.
And I find that quite exhausting because I’m trying to do it as well in a way that is not sort of laying down the law and I’m trying to do it in a way that is friendly and maintains a good relationship and feels OK but it’s a lot of effort for me.
But yeah, I’ve found I need to do that. So, that’s been a big thing, and just bringing my own stuff into it and being OK with that as well. Because I think a lot of the time what I try to do is think about OK, what am I like in my relationship with my husband or my kids. I am there saying, especially with my husband, I read this thing or I listened to this podcast. Did you know this? I’m sharing it. And so it’s the same with my kids.
I really like reading. So I worked really hard to find books that Ruben likes and I will read to him. I made that effort because that is important to me. Liam is not interested.
I would love to share this but with Liam I can be like OK fine it’s not his thing and let it go. So it’s this tightrope between bringing who I am. Trying things out being like what about this? What about that? What about this? And it’s also just complicated because they like things that are familiar.
Even She-Ra that they are both obsessed with. They objected to it for three episodes about how it was cringe. I think maybe they thought because it was a cartoon it was for little kids. So, sometimes I just have to be like let’s keep watching it let’s see what it’s like. And then they end up loving it. And it’s been kind of complicated for me. But I do feel like I’m in a good place with it. But it feels like it’s still trial and error. Like does this work? Does this look OK? How much I know I’m going to meet some resistance but like how much resistance. And also just trying to understand I’ll get information in ways that are not as clear as, this is what I thought of this. So both of them are not great at telling me. I don’t know this sort of negotiation beforehand or the sort of thinking about how it was afterwards. I don’t really get that.
But I will be able to see how long they lasted, how much fun they are having. Often I will say OK we’re going and then they can decide to come back whenever they want and they will stay. So how long they want to stay, how happy they are.
Ruben is really helping me because he’s developed a system where he wants to wear his favorite pajamas after particularly good days. So, I’m getting some really useful information from that in terms of what he feels like is a good day. Sometimes it’s a really good day because something really amazing has happened on Roblox. The other day he finished Doors which was big. And so that was a good pajama day. Yeah. If you know you know.
But some days, I’ve taken him to do something that he didn’t seem that keen on. But he ended up having a really good time. So I’m having to gather information from different sources.
And because a lot of the negative stuff will come straight out of their mouths immediately. And it took me a long time to realize that is just what is happening for them in that moment. It’s 100 percent true. But it’s not forever. So I think I sort of put a little bit too much emphasis on believing that bit. And I missed a lot of other stuff as the whole story.
ANNA: Right. That’s not the whole story of their experience. I think what’s so cool about, well a lot of different things that you said, but how important the pendulum was because I think especially for coming from a more controlling place. I don’t know that you can get to that nuanced place without really letting go. Because I remember that time when you were doing that where you were just learning so much about them and it kind of surprised you, the things that you were learning when you weren’t directing in front of them.
And so I think it’s cool to see that was needed to get to this place. But I’m a huge advocate for everybody being in the equation because how else can we live and sustain life and enjoy things? We all need to be in the equation. But it’s that awareness that’s so critical to keep the relationships and for everybody to be enjoying themselves.
And yeah we’re all going to have outings that we don’t enjoy. I do plenty of that. But there’s pieces of it. I’ll stop talking. But I love that.
PAM: Oh for me what I love is the image of the tightrope. But the way you described the tightrope, I often use the metaphor of the dance. And so I think those are very similar.
It’s that dance of being present, of being there, of sharing ourselves and noticing right how it’s received and taking that as information not as judgment.
I think that’s why the pendulum. Anyway I was going to say we can be so taken aback when they feel safe and free enough to express what they’re feeling. But yeah it can definitely cloud our vision as to this is the result of the thing that we did so let’s not do that again I guess.
But instead recognizing the piece of that dance or that tightrope that you’re balancing on like oh yeah that was a moment. Oh yeah I can totally see why that moment isn’t working. And oh yeah noticing later on. But it’s so hard to notice the other pieces when we’re feeling overwhelmed by that initial negative dump on us right. It’s like OK let’s get out of here as fast as possible and not do this again for six years until they’re much older or whatever. Right?
So I think that was such a beautiful piece. And the other piece that really stuck out for me was the pajamas. I love that because it’s our kids, people, human beings can communicate in so many different ways. Some people just aren’t talkers. So you are observing for reactions, noticing what PJs they choose. There are so many ways that our kids are communicating with us. But it’s opening up to see them and notice them and to respect them as valuable as a conversation or as words that they share with us.
ERIKA: It was so cool. And I just really appreciate you describing what it looks like now, because it’s like getting to that place is not where we would expect to be. I’ve had the similar experience with my kids, where there is a certain amount of pushing involved but it’s not what I would have thought it would have been from the beginning of parenting. And so, I love the description of that pendulum and releasing. And what happens in that space is they start to trust that you are taking their needs seriously. You’re hearing them. You’re learning about them. And that builds this kind of environment that then they trust you to say, I have this idea for you. And here it is. And they won’t just reject it outright. Or if they do it’s still just different.
I mean it’s different than it used to be with my kids as well where they are. They know that it’s based on all of this kind of shared history and what I know that they like and everything. And I just think a lot of us find ourselves in that place with our kids. And so I think that’s going to be super relatable and helpful for people to hear.
PAM: Love that piece Erika. Oh sorry, just to riff off what you were saying there. It’s like that energy shift. They can feel that the things that we’re recommending or suggesting for them are because we’re thinking about them. It’s not that we’re recommending or suggesting something that we wish that they’d like to do or something that is about us, what we like without regard. You know what I mean. We’re really suggesting it because we’ve thought of them. We’re thinking about the pieces.
ANNA: I liked how you said it’s air conditioning, the Internet, because maybe the heat doesn’t feel good to one of them and the Internet feels important in those wind downs after you’ve done things. And so I think and again I think this is for adults too. It’s like when we’re thinking about the other people in our life, oh, she likes this kind of food. We’ll make sure there’s a restaurant like that or oh I’m thinking about, she doesn’t like the cold or this and that. This is how relationships work right to be thinking about each other and it kind of sets that stage. So I think that is such a beautiful piece to bring into something as simple as I want to go to the beach. I think we’d all have fun at the beach. Let’s make sure it works for everybody.
ERIKA: Yeah. I love that. So for my question, something you’ve brought up many times on the network which has been so interesting is this lens of cultural differences and how that helps us understand that there are so many different ways that people do the same thing or the meaning that something has for different people is completely different. And so I would love for you to share a little bit more about how things we think are ‘have tos’ or think are just totally normal are really culturally specific.
NORA: Yeah absolutely. I think I might be a frustrated anthropologist because I love this stuff so much. And it’s so fascinating and it’s really interesting because this isn’t my first time living abroad. This isn’t my first time living in Costa Rica but this is really the longest time. I just feel like I’m reaching a new level of studying this culture and also through understanding my own culture. And yeah, the whole people are different thing has been so massive for me and it is so useful to just be somewhere where people are doing things differently, everybody around you is doing things differently. And you sort of have to work out what you think about it and sometimes you’re like this is bananas and then you live here for like four years you’re like oh okay.
So for example, it’s very normal here to get up at what I think of as very early, so five or six in the morning. And I never really got it until I realized that the daylight is very consistently six to 630 in the morning, and till six to 630 at night. So if you get up at nine, you’re missing a lot of that daylight. And also in the rainy season, it rains in the afternoon. So you sort of organize your life around it.
When there are all the things you want to get done in the morning when it’s not raining, it just makes way more sense to go to bed early and get up early. I mean, I haven’t started doing it, but I get it.
So there’s been loads of things like that where a lot of it so much of its climate as well, in terms of things like that. But yeah, in terms of understanding that we put meaning on a lot of behaviors, especially with kids and seeing the way that these the same behavior can be seen very differently in two different places.
We had one come up because we returned to the UK for the first time in July. And it was very striking how much people care that you say please and thank you. Whereas in Costa Rica, they don’t care that much if you say please and thank you, but they really care if you say hello and goodbye. When you arrive somewhere, you have to go up to each person and give them a kiss and say hello. Especially close family, you have to go around to everybody and say goodbye. That is not the case in the UK. And so this idea of “politeness” is completely different.
And then yeah, there was a really interesting conversation in the network about food and having a kid that like, scoops up all of the brownies or whatever. And just goes and eats all the food. And whether or not that would be seen as impolite or sort of people putting even a value judgment on that is a greedy kid.
That the kid that is not leaving enough for everybody else. That is a kid that is not considerate, or that is not thinking about whether other people are getting enough or whatever, which is absolutely how it will be seen in the UK. You have to sort of perform consideration a little bit, you have to sort of make sure that you’re not the one taking everything because it’s all about being polite, right?
Nobody’s gonna say, hey, leave some for me. So you have to sort of preempt that by leaving things for other people. And I mean, I was always the person that was like, I’ll have the last piece of cake if nobody else is going to so I feel like maybe I’ve moved to Costa Rica for a good reason.
But here, especially with kids, if you eat all of the food, the grownups are delighted. And like you, they are being hospitable. And they are giving you food because they want you to have a good time. And they’re, sort of to me a little bit over concerned, whether kids are eating or not, that seems to be much more of a worry that the kids will just not eat enough. And in fact, even in my own home. I think this is just occurring to me now that we have a bit of a cultural difference there, where Luis is much more concerned about whether they actually eat. That is a really big worry. So if a kid goes in and just eats everything It’s fine, the other kids will just be doing the same thing.
But it’s not seen as rude. It’s just seen as this is a kid that’s appreciating what we have to offer. And so it’s so interesting, these sort of value judgments.
And there’s a whole thing here about, I think of the UK being a rigid country, with rules that you need to follow. And I hadn’t realized until I came here, how much I walk into every situation, looking for the rules, like, what am I supposed to do here? What is going on? What can I do? What can’t I do? And then I moved to what I would call a flexible country, and realized nobody cares, nobody’s doing that.
So there’s a completely different attitude to rules. I feel like in the UK, if you break the rules, just the act of breaking them is a problem. So, if you break a rule, you’ve committed two crimes, you’ve done the thing you weren’t supposed to do. But also, you’ve broken the rule. Whereas in Costa Rica, it’s much more like, oh, you caught me. And the other person is like, oh, you tried.
But you know, fair enough. Well, wouldn’t we all but you know, now you have to stop because I’ve caught you. Even kids I find here are very like that.
And I struggle with it sometimes, because I feel like they will do what they want until they’re told not to. But it’s just a completely different sort of way. If I come into that with my British brain, I will be like, that kid is naughty. And that kid is trained enough to kind of supervise themselves. They’re not supervising themselves. They’re just going crazy doing whatever they want, because they’re expecting somebody to come and supervise them.
So, I would see that as a problem. And I do struggle with it genuinely still. But then there’s a freedom to that. There’s flexibility. And that’s how the society is. So yeah, it’s really been helpful for me in terms of, not of just realizing how much judgment we put on kids behavior but that it’s cultural. It’s like you could see that exact same behavior in another country and it would be seen in a completely different way. So you can just sort of get rid of that layer of judgment over it, I think. It’s definitely helped me do that to just be like, okay, I don’t know, this doesn’t mean what I think. I don’t have to think that this means this thing. So yeah, that’s been very helpful, actually. But interesting as well.
ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s so cool, because I think it’s exactly that. It helps us bring curiosity to it. And I think whenever we get in this rigid story of there’s one way to move through the world it’s disconnecting. I think that is something that’s great about the network, because we even see it with people responding differently, because we have people from all over the world. And it’s like, oh, you know, this isn’t a big deal.
We come in thinking this thing is this really big deal. And other people are like, wow, that never even occurred to me, we do it completely differently. And so it’s so fun to see that range of cultures there.
Now I really think we even have microcosms of it in any country, right? In families, there’s a family culture, there’s these different pieces. And so recognizing what’s okay, just not bringing that judgment layer, I guess, is the piece that I think is so helpful.
Because then I think it allows me to get curious. And then I’m able to think about, does this serve me? Is this cultural idea serving me?
PAM: I think it’s really, really, I mean, I’m going to say fun, because when I could release that, the judgment pieces that I came to see, as you’re going through something that we have our own kind of judgments, and etc. But to discover the ones that are more cultural it opens things up. Instead of, that’s the way things work. Those are the rules of things.
To be able to start playing with that, and just really get curious about what they’re doing. Because then we’re starting to see through their eyes, like you said, Nora, even now, it’s still sometimes challenging when other kids are just doing these things.
So to be able to wonder what the heck is driving that? What’s behind that? To just get curious about that. I think it is so very helpful. And then it just brings, I was gonna say, it brings a new set of eyes when I’m watching my own kids. But really, it’s kind of like taking off the filters and the glasses, because they’re not any different.
They’re not acting. I am seeing differently what it is that they are choosing to do. So in that way, I just learned so much about them.
But yeah, I can see so much. And when you’re talking about some of the Costa Rican culture, it sounded very familiar to some of the Italian culture in my husband’s family. And it’s just fascinating, like the going up, the hellos and goodbyes being super important that way.
And, interesting, because you kind of mentioned the briefing and debriefing piece, but that was something we would talk about as we were rolling up in the driveway. It’s like, oh, hey, we’re going to say hi to Nona when we get in there. We’ll all go in, we’ll all say hi. And then you can go and play and do whatever and whatever we brought, or whatever they were looking forward to doing.
So, it was very helpful that way, for understanding the culture, helping them kind of understand it, just say, yeah, she really just wants to know you’re here and say hello to you, etc. And it would be very interesting to kind of navigate that tightrope or that dance, like if somebody’s kind of not in the mood or whatever, and working for, how can I agree? How can I help Nona be happy that these people have come to visit? So it’s super interesting to use that cultural lens as well. Just to see people in a new light, I think.
ERIKA: I love that, helping our kids learn about the differences, how people are different and pointing those things out. This may not matter that much to me, but I can see to her, this is really important, or whatever it is. I love that. And I like bringing this lens just to look at anything that comes up that I feel like, well, that’s just wrong. They should know that’s wrong. And they shouldn’t do that. That’s, everyone knows that’s wrong.
And so how true is that really? Does everyone think it’s wrong? Is it wrong in every situation? Kind of digging under when we have that strong feeling of judgment towards what someone is doing. It can just be interesting to kind of dig under that and see how true that really is. And is our feeling about it really ours? Or is it just something that we learned, an external message from when we were younger?
PAM: So often these are kind of cultural, they’re cultural norms, but they’re shortcuts for our brain. Because as you were saying, Nora, it’s been a lot of work, right? To figure out how to engage with your kids, how to support them without using tools that you weren’t comfortable using as a parent.
And so often when we go into these situations, a lot of these are shortcuts. And it’s like, yeah, this is the way we do it, blah, blah, blah. And so you’re going to learn to do it this way too.
So it is more work, I feel, but it’s also what we’re choosing, the kinds of relationships that we want to have, the way we want to engage in moments, even for ourselves. I mean, I spend a lot of time working for myself, as you were saying, and noticing the difference in the cultures and, and it’s like, well, you know, why are you doing it? My brain, my personal unique brain just kind of really loves to know why we are doing that.
And then I can be all in. But if I don’t understand it, it makes it much more challenging, because then it feels performative. I don’t feel like I’m showing up in the moment, I feel like I’m performing whatever I’m supposed to be doing. It’s so understandable. Why the different cultures, they’ve just absorbed this over their lifetime. And this is the way we do the things.
But it’s so valuable to get to that beginner’s mind questioning space, so that we can even just have these conversations with our kids, but also to open up our eyes to, is this something that we want to be doing participating in? I still love the air conditioning, the internet, like all those pieces. Like, yes, okay, we want everybody to go to the beach, but to take that extra time, you know, to understand the people that are going to be there with you and the things that will help them feel comfortable and enjoy the time as well as much as we’re anticipating enjoying it for the beach itself. That is just so valuable in developing that trust that we’ve been talking about this whole time, that trust in the relationship, so that the back and forth that we have with our kids is literally trusted by them, that we’re not trying to manipulate them, we’re not trying to take away their agency.
We’re just really interested in doing this thing. And I think that you could really enjoy it too. And I’ve thought about this, this and this and like, let’s go try it.
And as you said, they know they can leave if they’re really not enjoying it in that moment. So they’re, they’re not losing that agency, they’re not losing that control. But like you said, helping them with the transition to the actual activity.
ANNA: And I think it’s that piece of holding everything a little bit more lightly. Like, I’m curious, and maybe Nora, you can answer this, like maybe in Costa Rica, the beach experience is no AC and no internet, because you’re thinking the beach is right there, right? But you’re making it work for your family and the people that you’re bringing to it.
NORA: I mean, I really need the AC. And the showers, the shower next to the beach is a big for me, I really hate having sand on me. So actually, a lot of times our needs overlap.
But yeah, there was a famous time when I accidentally, when my sister was visiting, and I accidentally booked an Airbnb, not the beach, actually, but somewhere hot, and it didn’t have air conditioning. So everyone’s dripping. It was so hot.
So I think also, just being able to be comfortable. I also want to be comfortable. And it’s interesting to think about because the flat that we rent, I don’t think I would have rented that one sort of pre kids, because it was sort of in this big development. I would have wanted to be somewhere with lots of fancy restaurants, or, you know, somewhere a bit more, I don’t know, more traveling rather than tourism. And this is definitely more tourism, and you’re just in this big development, and we don’t really leave it. And there’s this big pool.
But it’s so nice, just to be like, I’m going to just make sure we’re all comfortable. And I think even the podcast that we did many years ago, I was sort of talking about not pushing through and being like, I don’t have to put up with this rubbish situation, I can find a way to make it better. And I think that is still carrying me through because I’m just like, I want to go and see this beautiful country that we live in. I mean, I’m not even that fussed about the beach, but there are beautiful beaches here.
But I was like, I want to go somewhere. And actually, yeah, I think the beach is best for them. They don’t want to go and do hikes through rainforests or whatever. Because they really don’t like bugs. So even the choice of the beach is part of the decision. But it’s also like, this is if they’re comfortable, and I’m comfortable.
ANNA: Everything is just making it easier, right? The shower outside makes it infinitely easier than chasing down sand on everybody or everybody being uncomfortable. So right, I think it’s looking for those pieces.
But I think this whole cultural lens, again, it just allows us to, I don’t know, relax a little bit or let go of some of these, like you were saying, Erika, these rigid ideas of what we think is the only way to do it. And I think many countries have this, certainly parts of the US have this, it’s like, there’s one right way. And there just isn’t one right way.
And it’s so liberating to realize, because then you’re really able to sink into what is the way for us, what is the way that works for me? What is the way that works for my family? And that is very liberating.
So but it’s growth. And I feel like all of these things are bringing that awareness and allow us to grow.
NORA: I think just as you said that I was like, Oh, yeah, Costa Rica is just better at the idea of there’s not one way to be. It’s just a flexible country. I really thought about this for it is just a bit more like people are just not quite expecting everybody to live the same, in the way that people in the UK are. I don’t know, it’s really complex. It’s not quite that simple.
But there’s definitely an element of in the UK, there’s this standard. And there is, I don’t know, I think it’s this sort of optimization. You have to sort of do everything better, you have to improve better, whereas Costa Rica is much more relaxed. And so I think that really helps as well.
So yeah, I think Costa Rica is just generally a better place to be like, you do your thing.
ANNA: Yeah, right, really taking in that flexibility piece, because if you’re in a culture, that’s really so much more rigid in that way, it would be harder. But all countries have different pockets, I’m sure. And I have some familiarity with Italian culture as well. And there are so many things that they’re very light about. And it’s very different. And when I’m there, I always think, Oh, this feels so different.
And yet I see why they love it and how it leads to these different types of relationships with these different types of experiences. I think it’s such a cool lens to take to anything we’re feeling, I don’t know, rigid about or ouchy about, when it comes to our kids.
Well, thank you, Nora, this was so fun. I really appreciate it. I know we have much more to talk about. We’ll come back with another episode, because there are just so many nuances of all the things. I just really appreciate you being here. And thanks to everyone for listening. We hope you enjoyed this conversation.
And before we go, I want to invite everyone to join all of us at the Living Joyfully Network where we can have some more fun conversations. It’s a warm, welcoming online community of like-hearted parents in a non-judgmental space where we can steep in these unconventional ideas and explore what they might look like day to day in you’re uniquely wonderful family.
We do have a free month that you can try to see if it’s a good fit. And we would just love to see you there because it’s so fun. Again, the more people we have to talk with and from different places, I think we all just learn and grow so much from being steeping in that environment where there really isn’t judgment.
We’re really not judging anyone else. It’s just learning and being curious. So I love it.
And I really appreciate you being there, Nora, and also here. So thank you. Thank you so much.
PAM, ERIKA: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much, Nora.
Leave a Reply